[Scott G]

Oh, and as far as grading & kiln drying. We have gotten to the point here where as long as an engineer is willing to sign off on it the wood can be used as structural. It does not have to be kiln dried. Air drying works just fine here with our very low RH. As a matter of fact the issue is usually trying to slow down the drying process so you get minimal dimensional degrade and checking/cracking, twisting, and warping.

As a woodworker I much prefer to use air dried material vs kiln dried. Too many mills try to hurry the process and the wood becomes case hardened. I can sink a chisel into a piece of wood and know immediatley if it went through a kiln or was air dried.

Most certification systems as far as I’m concerned have minimal merit. The reason being the third party audit standards and lack of monitoring for harvesting operations. Its a good start, however, and you have to start somewhere…

[Scott G]

Einstein’s definition of insanity: Doing the same thing the same way time after time and expecting different results…

In the current market, trying to haul enough volume to the landing in the traditional fashion & paying stumpage in line with ground based mechanical shows is the short route down the cliff.

Thinking outside of the box and exchanging ideas with one another about what works and what doesn’t as well as being willing to try something different is what will enable horse loggers to not only survive but thrive.

Being vertically integrated at every step of the process from felling to a final value-added finished product is critical. Not only do you have the potential to maximize every drop of profit out of that material, you keep your operation diversified enough so that when one sector is having issues the other processes are there to support it. Every very successful outfit I know of, machine or horse operation, is vertically integrated and every one of those I know are still weathering the current economic downturn and in some cases, thriving. Stump to finished product is the answer, or at least the mindset to get there. Service work for quality TSI on properties where esthetics are paramount is another example of value-added. This is and has been the predominant business model I have used, both with mechanical & horse operations.

Horse logging is a niche, and as such should be marketed as one. I am not one of those who think animal power is the only answer. As a land manager, when I am putting out contracts my goal is to use the most appropriate harvesting system for the project, from horse to helicopter. In our fragmented, small acreage, or sensitive sites here in the central Rockies horses are the ideal harvesting system when an individual tree or group selection silvicultural prescription is being implemented. It also makes economic sense on these small parcels due to low overhead and low move in costs. In a patchcut in lpp which by definition is naturally an even-aged stand and requires even-age management, a well run mechanical CTL operation is very appropriate. Mix & match with systems also works well; i.e., forwarders with horses being used as pre-bunchers. This method truly gives you the best of both worlds, something the Scandinavians have been dialed into for a long time.

Practicing forestry in southern Appalachia is completely different than practicing forestry in the Rocky Mountains and as such, requires different silvicutural, operational, and thought processes.

That said, the common ground is to practice management in the most environmentally sound, silviculturally appropriate, low-impact, highest utilization, operationally efficient, and cost effective manner possible. There is and has been a place for draft power in forestry world wide. It is just making the most of what you get and filling the niches where it truly is the best harvesting system option available, not exclusive of other options.

As far as firewood, the wood I use is a byproduct of other operations. The harvesting of the firewood is offset by the revenue generated from service work or mill receipts. I very seldom go to the woods just looking for firewood, it justs accumulates throughout the year. If the owner payed for the harvesting, I will buy the firewood back at the landing for a minimal rate. In essence, because it’s unprocessed value at the landing is so low, I pay very little for it. This is key in making money. The value-added component comes into play when I buck, split, and deliver it. I get $185/cord delivered & dumped. I can process and deliver 2 cords a day. At $370 minus maybe a small bit if I bought wood back from the landowner I still easily make well over $300 for an 8-10 hour day. Not at the top end for a day’s work but not bad for low cost work at my wood yard with material that I would have anyway.

This goes back to what I have said several times on this forum; know your costs. If you know your costs you can avoid pitfalls and recognize opportunities.

Know your markets/niche, develop those markets, then market the hell out of your operation.

[Scott G]

I’m for keeping universal commands. Horses & Mules, more often than not, change owners or teamsters sometime in their life. Changinging it up too much is asking for a wreck or a ruined animal from mixed messages in my opinion. Specialized commands are one thing, standard should be standard.

Although there may be some validity to what he uses. ‘Gee’ this hill is d*** steep! or ‘Haw’-ly sh** I hope I make it to the bottom of this thing alive!! 😀

[Scott G]

Yeah, It seems as though the jet stream has us in its sites for awhile.

Its not that I have anything against winter. I grew up in the Rockies and used to be a ski bum. My priorities have changed as I have gotten older and the lack of a smooth transition for seasons out here, which is the norm, has gotten to the point of being the equivalent of shock therapy.

The truth is I prefer to cut when its cold. Skidding is easier and the logs stay cleaner too as well as less potential for residual damage.

I am just slower to adapt to abrupt change than I use to be and every winter I never seem to accomplish what I had been set/planned to do by the first big dump & serious cold. You wouldn’t think this would be a problem for someone who has lived in the mountains his entire life…

[Scott G]

John & Kate, Welcome!!

It is nice to welcome new members from the Rockies!

Sounds as though we have a lot in common, my beginnings were also in the packing and outfitting world.

My best friend mountaineering/skiing buddy, Billy Boyd, lives in Kalispell. He is currently the hospital administrator at the hospital there. We use to tear it up 20+ years ago. I still have trouble imagining him in the serious role he’s in now…

Again, welcome, and we look forward to hearing much more input from you. Your lurking days are over! 🙂

[Scott G]

Thanks everyone.

I was not trying to rehash an old topic. There are numerous threads/discussions out there on different cart designs & merits.

My take/intent is a little different in that I want to and strongly believe in supporting those that are making a go of it at supplying our niche and culture.

I could certainly take a set of plans, say of Barden’s or Fishers’ cart and have my neighbor, who is an incredible fabricator/welder, make one.

My thought is that if we want to build & expand our pursuit of draft powered forestry, contributing business to those manufacturing that specialized equipment is a worthwhile expenditure.

[Scott G]

Forest Mfg’s arch lists for about half of what Jim Brown’s does ($1,100 vs $2,000). Anybody have any idea if there is that big of a difference in quality, durability, or components?

[Scott G]

Thanks Taylor I’ll give him a call.

Did you use a single, and rotate out, or a team for pre-bunching on your pine thinning job?

[Scott G]

Thanks Taylor,

I really like the height adjustment on the posts above the axles to adjust draft for different size animals.

Is your friend in Southern MN Tim Carroll? I saw a video of a cart he had that looked like Forest Mfg. If he has one of Jim Brown’s how does he like it? I can contact Tim if that is the case.

The biggest need I have for a cart is hauling pre-bunches back to the landing to get the stem count per turn up.

Thanks again.

[Scott G]

Welcome, Bumpus!

Sorry you can’t get into the woods anymore. I can’t imagine myself in that situation…

You still have any of the skidding equipment you picked up? Specifically J-hooks, log grabs, etc?

Take care.

[Scott G]

Nice job, man!!

I’ve always wanted to take my woodworking skills and get into wagon/carriage building.

Unfortunately it is way down on “the list” and will probably have to wait until my later years when my ability to work in the woods dwindles….

Again, very nice job!

[Scott G]

Same story, different day. I am getting hammered by firewood orders, however, and that is a good thing. Firewood has dominated my life for the last couple of weeks.

Just waiting for the Ibuprofen to kick in, then back to it….

[Scott G]

Over-populated elk herds coupled with very high tourist density in an interface situation. In Estes, if you don’t want it eaten by elk you need to put a fence around it.

Think Yellowstone & bears + people…

[Scott G]

No thorns out here, just rock piles, broken terrain, ravines, brush thickets, etc.

For any nasty/inaccessible hole just as Carl said, lengths of chain/rope,cable until you get it out to a better place. A block hung in a tree with rope is really handy too.

[Scott G]

I just have borium spots welded on for everyday use on the rock/ice we have here. Otherwise I go with full blown calks if traction is a major issue, i.e. iced down skid trails, landings, and roads in the winter. If the horse and I are both wearing calks we can pretty much climb anything. I haven’t used screw in (on horses, my boots have screw in corks) but have heard from others that they weren’t to keen on them. I have no experience with the drive in type.

If your horse is the dominant in your herd and is prone to lettin’ both barrels go, I’d be really cautious about putting calks on. They can tear up flesh pretty bad…

[Author]

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