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simon lenihan
Participantwhat would be considered a large horse logging contract across the pond, we are currently working on a 2000 tonne contract which has been our biggest contract to date, this size of contract gives us financial stability for a while but the downside is that we are out of circulation for a period of time and miss out on some contracts. I suppose its just a fact of life. I know vermont has alot of maple plantations but what about spruce and pine, what is the quality like, do horse loggers get the chance to work on the bigger stuff or are they priced out of it by harvesters/ skidders, etc.
simon lenihanParticipantI bought my first swedish harness secondhand 15 years ago from hans sidbach [ book, horse in the forest ] and it is still as good as new all these years on. THe swedish harness looks flimbsy but believe me it will outlast most other harness. The design has changed very little in the last 100 years and there is ex swedish army harness 50 years old still around. It is based around the principal of the d ring harness, the big advantage of the swedish harness is that it has an open bottom and should your horse put on or loose weight it can be adjusted accordingly with the bottom hames strap. Alot of folk comment on how little the measurement of draft is on the collar compared with an american collar that might have 22″ of draft. However the collar follows the contour of the shoulder and once bedded in fits like a glove. I also like the collars produced by sugar valley collar shop, jason sent me on some pictures of his suffolk team on a heavy pull with these collars fitted, you only have to look at the weight they are pulling to realise how good they are. I have never used a team on a tongue and i am in no position to give judgement, if one was working really rough ground would the tongue sway not cause the horses sore shoulders?. When working in tight confines would the tongue not be a hindrance, why are tongues not fitted with springs to eliminate tongue weight, just curious and still learning.
simon lenihanParticipantThere are thousands of gypsy vanner horses in ireland, it is probably the original home of these very flashy horses. Personally i would not be interested in owning one and over the years have only seen a couple in the woods. The horses i have seen over here have been out on loan for the winter from a local company where you can hire out a coloured horse and gypsy wagon for a week or two. The said company were always looking to offload the horses for the winter. I have yet to hear a good report about these horses when it comes to doing a days work. I think its all about image and i suppose thats what alot of folk like to see. However when you move into the cities in ireland you can see them tethered at roundabouts, football fields really anywhere you can find a bit of grass you will find a vanner. Here though you will find a different type of vanner, lighter, smaller but still with alot of feather, these are trotting horses and i often pulled up at the traffic lights in our local city when one would pull up along side, lights green, gone like a flash. In the capital dublin they are known as the urban cowboys and they will ride through the city center at any time of the day or night. I have met some of these guys over the years and have had a chance to get to know some of them, alot of them come from the poorer parts of the city and its there only means of transport, they are passionate about their horses and really look after them. I always remember when my best friend went to dublin to study art, money was in short supply and the only accomadation he could afford was in one of the poorer parts of the city [ home to the urban cowboys ] he lived in a tall block of flats which was fitted with a lift, one evening as the lift was closing someone shouted him to keep it open, along comes a teenager with a young vanner into the lift. when he asked him what he was doing, he replied that he was not going to leave it out in such incrimant weather. This was not a one off this was widespread at one time and prior to i coming over to the uk 7 years ago alot of government officals were trying to stop them keeping horses. must find out what has happned back at home and report back.
simon lenihanParticipantcarl, m&s jumentum do not have a web site as far as i know all info i have is a few leaflets. you have to understand that horse drawn forwarders are being developed in scandinavia for nearly 30 years and have come on in leaps and bounds over the years. They will travel through rough forests, over boulders, stumps, etc no problem without couping over. It would not have made much sense to invest heavily on a piece of kit that could only travel on flat forests roads. We do not get any snow over here, maybe a small sprinkling at times but they work them in finland and sweden where they get alot, wheel chains and light band tracks are used at times. When we get a chance we will do some recording, put it on a disc and you then can see for yourself.
simon lenihanParticipantThe following are methods of payment over here for felling and extraction using animal power. 1.. The most common method is to be paid by the tonne, lorrys that enter the mill go over a weigh bridge, a print out of that weight will be sent to the horse logger. 2..If the timber is of poor quality the horse logger would be looking to be paid by the hour or day. 3.. Some forest owners like to pay per piece, eg..£2.00 for 3.7m sawlog, 60p for a 3m length of chip. 4… If the timber is light and is only suitable for firewood it can be paid by the cubic meter. 5.. You can buy timber standing, pay the forest owner per tonne[ prior agreement ] and then market timber one self. As to how much one can make depends on so many factors, you have to walk the standing sale several times to get a proper feel for the terrain and only then will you have an idea how much you can fell and extract in a day and how much you can afford to pay forest owner [ seldom goes to plan anyway ]. I think softwood prices are somewhere similar in vermont / new hamshire as they are over here. The biggest hurdle recently is the expenses incurred during the month, traveling, horse feed, insurance, etc, its no wonder there are only a handfull working full time in the woods. Here are some of the prices we are paying at present[ take in to account that timber prices are similar and that £1.oo is worth nearly $2.00 ] 1 gallon of petrol just shy of £5.00, 1 small square bale of hay £3.50p, 20kg of rolled oats £6.50p, diesel is more expensive than petrol and the list goes on, prices will vary from place to place. the pleasure horse market has a big bearing on prices over here as it probably has every where. Alot of farmers have finished up farming and converted their farm into a livery, they said its great, a cheque at the end of each month for each horse they keep.
simon lenihanParticipantrick, is it not possible to hire employees that carry their own insurance,or is it possible to sub contract the felling operation.
simon lenihanParticipantcarl, the wagon was designed by a horselogger from finland called miika afelt, the company m&s jumentum built the forwarder, these forwarders are not made outside of finland. They build 3 different versions, lightweight for one horse, middleweight for a pair without assisting draw, and the model we have heavyweight with assisting draw. Our forwarder weighs 1600kg and can take a maximum length of 5 meters. maximum payload is 5000kg. THe assisting draw is variable and is operated by a lever marked from 0 to 10, 10 being the maximum assist, as the horses come under pressure the lever is raised driving more hyddraulic oil to the motors which in turn helps the horses.
simon lenihanParticipanthi rick, the crew configuration has not worked out as well as we planned last year. My wife was very ill at the start of last year and one of our sons had to stay home for a number of months, that just left 3 of us in the wood which was not ideal. However now that my wife is back to full health we hope to get our crew configuration sorted. My son keith who is 20 drives the forwarder with our two studs in the shafts, simon jnr, ian and myself will do the felling and use our mares to skid to track side. WE would aim to keep keith on the forwarder full time if possible. Miik afelt [ horselogger ] who designed this machine along with MS jumetumn did a time study a few years back. The productivity of forest transport of three meter birch pulp at a medium distance of 473 meters was 8.7m3 at an actual working hour, 5 meters birch pulp would yeild 14.5 m3 an hour. timber specs will vary from wood to wood, at the moment we are mostly cutting 3.7 meter sawlogs which would equate to about 11m3 an hour.. 11m3 =10 tonnes which roughly = 2000 board feet. A 6 hour working day should yield 60 tonnes [ 12000 board feet ]. The problem is that you would require a large crew and quiet a number of horses to fully maximise the potential of the forwarder. THe ideal situation is if one is living in an area where there are a number of horse loggers the forwarder could be maxmised by coring with other horseloggers to forward their timber.
simon lenihanParticipantFor years we have worked steep ground, this was our niche, sourceing quality timber in really difficult terrain. This enabled us to buy the standing timber cheaply or if working on a tonnage basis to get a top price at roadside. The maximum skidding distance would vary between 100 and 300 meters, this has kept us going full time for the past 18 years but we were running out of suitable work, we were refusing work 500 meters / 1000 meters from roadside as it would be too much on the horses and not financially viable. There would be an option to skid to a forest track for further collection by a mechanical forwarder but there are several problems associated with this method, first and foremost is the cost, secondaly you have the bottelneck of timber at trackside and then you have to consider if your landing area can accomadate several lorry loads of timber at once. The advantages of the log wagon is that it has opened up alot of extra work for us, most woods are within our capabilitys now, it has taken away the back breaking manual stacking of timber at roadside. It has allowed us to take on contracts where the loading bay is small allowing us to stack timber high enough to bring a lorry in. The disadvantages are the inital costs, the amount of timber required now each month to make it viable and most importantly the continuance of viable contracts. I am not familar with the terrain carl works but over here it is only steep ground that we work with the log wagon any forest that is on the level or even with a slight gradient is worked on by big processors. WE work mostly 6 days a week and about 48 to 50 weeks a year, our only income is from the timber we produce and it is for this reason that we must keep in touch, we will never compete with the big skidders nor do we want to, but we want to be a financially viable option for those that want their timber harvested sensitivly.
simon lenihanParticipantour favourite would have to be the belgian ardennes, have’nt changed much in the last 200 years and excelled in both world wars. ardennes that do not make the grade end up in the slaughter house insuring that only the best are bred from. plowboy there are still some old type percherons to be found this side of the pond, if you were ever interested just let us know and i will help in any way i can.
simon lenihanParticipantwe have used a horse drawn forwarder for a year now and are very pleased with results. The forwarder is made in finland by a company called M & s jumentum . The model we have is the biggest of 3 models available, it has a load capacity of 5 tonnes and is braked in all back 4 wheels, the lifting capacity is 1 tonne close in however it is possible to cheat on a much larger log than that by putting one end up first. This particular model is designed for working in steep terrain and is fitted with 4 small drive motors in the back wheels to help the horses going back up hill, this is run off a honda 13hp engine which in turn runs the pump that drives the hydraulic oil. WE use our 2 ardennes studs on the wagon. These forwarders are fitted with wide tyres suitable for work in the forest and or not really designed to be taken on the road, they would scrub off in no time, also the wheel bearings are not designed for fast road towing.
happy christmass, simon lenihan- AuthorPosts