A really terrible, awful, very bad, no good day…..

[Scott G]

All,
I mentioned my quality day in an organizational thread on this forum as a side note and it was suggested to post it here to share. Been a long time since I’ve had a day like that logging or riding/packing for that matter. Everything checked, harness, lines/headstall, bugs, no hot feed, or cougars perched in treetops. Just a new 4yo having a very bad day…? Please feel free to weigh in.

“As an aside, I had one of the most counterproductive clusters I’ve had in a long time yeterday with my single. It started out with him being wound up for unknown reasons as we loaded up to head to job. Upon arrival, he spent some quality time tied to the trailer as I did some felling, bucking, and slashing. Once I harnessed him up we were off and proceeded to go ballistic, pile driving himself into the largest nearby tree which required me extricating him from “nature’s squeeze chute”. My first thought was that I screwed up with the lines being wrapped/tangled and/or headstall/harness but everything checked out. Flies weren’t an issue; doused him down enough that they wouldn’t get within three feet of him Drove to the cut unit more sideways than forward. Went to choke the first log and he went sunny side up in a nearby slash pile. Again, checked everything out. He would not step up and refused to pull. Managed to keep my cool during the whole episode which amazed my daughter. I decided to call it at that time and end it on a plus note by driving him to the point of going straight and loaded him up. As always when these things happen the landowners were watching….

Still no idea of what abnormal was going on. Even though he has just come 4yo, I have driven and skidded with him with great sucess. Put the best color a horse can have on him, sweat, as I ponied him behind the truck for a 500′ elevation gain the 3/4 mile up the hill to the corral at home.

Been a while since I’ve had a good wreck like that packing, riding, or driving. Those are the type of days that test your commitment ( but I remain steadfast ). Will give it another go in the next couple of days. Horses, like us, can have a really terrible, awful, very bad, no good day…..”

Take care,
Scott

[simon lenihan]

He could have spotted something that spooked him, smelt something in the undergrowth, teeth could be giving him problems and the list goes on, horses are unpredictable and flight their first defence. We have a 13 year old stallion that has not put a hoof wrong in the last 10 years, we have worked in areas that puts any horse to the test, mountain tops where fighter jets whizz by, worked in a quarry where they blasted with dynamite 3 times a day, yet a month ago he bolted with my son on his back while riding past a bush on the track side, my son ended up in hospital with pulled muscles around his heart. I spoke to the woman that runs the near by riding school, she told me that she has encountered the same problem, all her horses will shy away as they pass this bush, some will stop and have to be coaxed past. I have checked this bush for dead carcases, plastic, glass that could trow a reflection and nothing. It just goes to show how little we understand what makes their mind tick.
simon lenihan

[Scott G]

Simon,
It wasn’t the killer bush or spooky stump. His attitude was cocked from when I first put the halter on him, all through the trailer ride, at the site, and on the way home. He only settled a bit after he was lathered by the brisk trip up the hill to the home corral. It truly was an all day attitude.

Hope all is well on your side of the big water….

Take care,
Scott

[Gabe Ayers]

It would seem possible it is about herd behavior or being herd bound. It is normal for a horse alone that is not very secure with their handler to be less settled, relaxed, confident and brave when not in the company of other horses.

They are flight animals so naturally their very survival is an instinctual tendency to run first and ask questions later. It would be interesting to see if his attitude was different if he had a mate along even if it was just left tied to the trailer. It takes a very brave horse to work alone in the forest and the ones that do, seem to accept their handler as another horse, which takes lots of time and a serious presence as a horse man. I think it is definitely easier with some horses than others, but it isn’t easy with any of them.

It is not the same to work one within site or familiar surroundings, as it is in a different place where they are wary of predators behind every bush, shadow, stump or tree.

I don’t think they can help it, just as they can’t help spooking when any stimulus occurs that they are not familiar with, like Simon’s stallion did and my own has done also.

I wouldn’t think following a truck up a hill with no resistance would tire a young horse enough to be relaxed or exhausted. It may be that he was just back home in familiar surroundings and relaxed by being there.

Some suggestions are: have an assistant lead the horse to and from the logs for a few rounds and see if they are made more brave by another horse (person) being in the lead. Make sure the assistant is aware of the horses frightened state and stays well ahead on loose lead line to stay out of dangers way if the horse bolts. They could carry a baton (stick) to reassure there position as a dominant one (horse).

A second suggestion (and this one may be way off the wall) is to take the bridle off and let them try it without blinders, this may not work and witness the fact that I think maybe Simon works his without blinders and it didn’t stop the stallion from wanting to leave the scene as fast as possible. What my old friend Glen French says is that this can help some horses by giving them more of a view of what is around them so they don’t freak out by what they can’t see. Fear of the unknown is universal.

Glad you didn’t get hurt and the horse survived too. Your remaining calm speaks volumes for your skill and commitment. If you work one single you will have to figure it out somehow.

It will be interesting to hear the rest of the boards thoughts. Particularly the old hands….Joel, Carl, Rick, Jimbojim, John……..we are all here to learn and share our experiences.

The story Simon tells is interesting and I hope pray his son recovers well. A stallion is usually as brave as any horse can be naturally, but they are still horses. There must be something there that is freaking all the horses out that go by. Next time you have a little spare, like maybe lunch, go to that site and set a spell and see if you can figure out what is scaring the horses at that particular spot.

On the other hand there are situations that we may never figure out about animals and that is the nature of the beast – if you hear anything different from any horse whisperers, then be skeptical, there next response will be buy my books and DVD’s or take my courses…. If they don’t humbly admit that don’t know everything there is to know about a horse then I wouldn’t think they would be good teachers to us normal human beings…. not to say they couldn’t teach allot to any of us.

[Scott G]

Jason was kind enough to send me an e-mail earlier addressing this and another topic. So I’ll just paste my response here. BTW Jason the road to home that I ponied him up at a pretty good clip is a 500′ elevation gain over only 3/4 mile distance at 8000′ elevation. He was breathing too hard and sweating too much to care about much of anything. He then spent a couple of quality hours tied to the hitch rail to ponder the consequences of life…

“The horse (Ben) has been worked by himself before with no issues other than being young & dumb. He is usually great when leaving everyone else behind and didn’t exhibit the behaviour I associate with separation anxiety from the others. Matter of fact, he is usually pretty indifferent to the others as he is the current dominant and has bonded to me well. The fact that the attitude was continuous throughout the day at different locations for no apparent reason is what puzzles me. I’ve had many blowups in my over 30 years of working with horses in the backcountry but usually there is an easy to spot cause or a rank mood that is easy to recognize.”
Thx & take care,
Scott

[Carl Russell]

Scott, I have had several of these experiences over the years. It is often so unexplainable, especially in comparison to other much better days, that I have found myself pondering all of the things that you have already mentioned.

For me it usually works its way back to what did I do that was different. Was I distracted by people(LO) watching? Was I trying too hard to make up for lost time? Did I push back too hard when he leaned into me when I was harnessing? Was I too unyielding?

The fact that the attitude persists, leads me to believe that the problem resides in the relation between teamster and horse. In my experiences it tends to come down to the horse having one of those days where they feel they need to assert something extra, and me being too rigid. Not having the patience and flexibility that is required sometimes to get to the other side where the horse once again trusts me. This usually is made very clear the next day when I have redoubled my resolve to focus on the horse and what the horse needs, and miraculously I have a completely different horse.

Just my thoughts, Carl

[Scott G]

Carl,

Thanks for your thoughts. They are extremely insightful, well articulated, and true. We all know that horses pick up our moods faster then we do; if we are tense they are more tense than we are. I was/am very focused on the horse due to his young age and the potential he holds. Every move I make with him has a distinct purpose with a positive experience and training as the end goals. That said……

I had the mindset when I left that morning that I had to finish skidding out this cutblock I had down that day so I could move on to the next job. Being as driven as I am that was foremost on my mind that day. My number one priority that day was skidding, not working with my young horse and putting his mind in the front of mine, realizing his limitations, and helping him work through them at his young age.

We all know these situations and I have been there many times before. Sometimes we just have to step outside of ourselves and look at the big picture.

I think you hit the nail on the head, my friend. Thank you.

[john plowden]

Scott – Days do come along that a usually calm and well worked horse will pick up on and throw a wrench into the plan – a reminder to me to leave the agenda at home – almost every time it is because I have changed the pace or routine that we follow and not given enough time for adjustment – because I need to get it done NOW –
I have a gelding that has worked for years in a team but lost his team mate – he is quite herd bound but will work single off the farm – there are days or times during the day that he looks to me for partnership so I will walk at his head with lines in hand while working – both into the woods and out with a load -this really boosts him up and after a while he can go it alone again –
Glad to see so much support on the thread –
John

[Carl Russell]

I have two little sayings that I came up with over the years, that I try to keep in my mind.

1. There is no such thing as almost, or sort of, patient.

2. If you’re in a hurry with horses, you got started two weeks too late.

We all obviously have to push the envelope, but subtlety is always in the mix.

This may not explain situations such as what Simon describes. Sorry to hear that. I hope your son recovers quickly.

There is always the chance that something unexplainable is at work. This is another reason to try not to narrow the focus on a some suspected problem, and sometimes just focusing on the desired end result and continually moving forward is all we can do.

Carl

[Gulo]

@Biological Woodsman 10507 wrote:

It would seem possible it is about herd behavior or being herd bound. It is normal for a horse alone that is not very secure with their handler to be less settled, relaxed, confident and brave when not in the company of other horses.

I have one herd-bound mare, a horse that had her six first years at pasture, that is impossible to drive single. She only works with the herd leader, so that’s how i work her. Don’t know if this applies here or to anyone, but thought i’d second the observation.

[Ronnie Tucker]

yes take your time .check out everthing . if this 4 year old is and should be broke and has been performing well .then he must need a ample dose of hickory tee apply liberally then allow to soak in for maybe 20 to 30 min then go back to work . this is a age old south method that can work on horses or mules or children .sometimes we think to long and much . i realize i have old ways but i get along allright with my work ronnie tucker tn logger

[near horse]

I know this isn’t a solution but remember perspective – the worst day working your horses is still better than the best day working at “the office/plant/factory”.

Keep at it and all the best.

[Carl Russell]

Ronnie Tucker;10520 wrote:

.. ..then he must need a ample dose of hickory tee apply liberally then allow to soak in for maybe 20 to 30 min then go back to work . this is a age old south method that can work on horses or mules or children .sometimes we think to long and much . i realize i have old ways but i get along allright with my work ronnie tucker tn logger

I have used the two-hander trainer plenty of times in my day as well, and although it is affective in some degree, I have found that I prefer a horse with some spirit, especially working in the woods. Today I would rather work with other methods to draw that spirit out of the horse so we both can use it to my advantage, instead of beating it out of him, or forcing it back in and putting a cap on it.

I appreciate your perspective Ronnie, just making my own review of those methods, based on my experience. I have found superior results today, as apposed to what I used to do.

Carl

[Scott G]

Joel,
He has always went single. Came from an Amish outfit in NE Ohio. To reiterate, I have skidded light loads with him since I got him after he just came 3. Other than what you would expect from a horse that age and lack of experience he has been fine.

As far as expecting blowups, I’ve experienced those regardless of age and experience for the myriad of reasons mentioned in this thread and more. I think Carl was right on once I stepped back and thought about it, my mind was entirely focused that morning on getting this particular cutting unit done and moving on down the road to the next job. I am beginning to get a significant backlog of contracts. This was the first time I was concentrating exclusively on the job and not my young horse. I was wound up to get the job done and he sensed it. I wasn’t pushing him, just preoccupied trying to get the production and not accounting for the young horse I now work with. Coming off a mechanical operation for the past several years; I still need to fine tune my mindset back to the day when I first started out using horses for skidding.

As far as correction & training, my origins were definitely influenced by the roughrider “break” your horse rather than train it. My methods have since changed although I have to admit it is sometimes hard not to revert to old ways when things aren’t going well. I, like Carl, find that it is a much more productive and enjoyable day when you work with your horse as a willing partner rather than getting the desired output strictly motivated by fear. I was not an easy convert but could recognize even back then that there must be a better way to achieve the results and relationship I wanted with my horses.

Great thread, thanks for everyone’s thoughts. Cool thing about horses and life, you never stop learning and there is always a new “gee whiz” around the corner…

Take care,
Scott

[Carl Russell]

Scott G;10532 wrote:

….my mind was entirely focused that morning on getting this particular cutting unit done and moving on down the road to the next job. I am beginning to get a significant backlog of contracts. …

I can tell you from experience that this is a very subtle and hard to manage source of stress. Doing a good job can be a double edged sword. It is a fundamental self-esteem builder, as well as the desired result of a good business plan, but it can also cultivate expectations from the outside world, that as we strive to respond, we are torn from the routines that support the effectiveness of our animal powered operations.

It is hard in this day and age to really be true to the animal powered pace, and at the same time satisfy the needs and expectations of modern life. I have had to stop taking work, because of too many jobs stacked up, and
I was beating myself up about not getting enough done. If it is caught early enough, this can turn into a good thing though, as I have finally gotten to a pace where I can pick and choose work that comes my way. The main thing is though, that constant nagging frustration that is the result of unmet expectations is a poor attitude for working with animals (and people).

Carl

[Author]

Posts