A really terrible, awful, very bad, no good day…..

[Gabe Ayers]

To simplify the situation is to see that old hickory reestablishes who is the dominant horse in the herd setting that a handler and horse are. Maybe the respect for the boss horse will allow the lesser horse to accept the boss and worry more about what he wants than any imaginary boogers out there.
It ain’t about making them afraid of you, but to respect you, just like the boss horse does in the herd setting at liberty. The boss horse doesn’t try to kill the underlings, just make them know their place.

Four year old horses are punks, even the good ones. I think about nine is when they start to develop a self identity that allows courage working alone, or just with the human handler as the other horse.

They are only horses and they can only see us as other horses. That’s why they call it being a horseman.

After thirty years of logging with horses as a primary income production, and refining the restorative forestry approach we have been overwhelmed with demand for services for many years. It just brings one to the point of only doing the best jobs from your perspective and anyone that doesn’t go along with that program brings me to saying “next”.

The BHL are doing what HHFF started over a decade ago regarding scholarships, stipends and mentor/apprentice programs. I again would suggest that anyone with the time – visit our web site and read the goals and objectives and mission statement closely. It’s all public information.

We are all still learning together, thankfully.

Anyone completely new to this culture may not understand all this, but if they keep at it – they will.

There are no easy answers, it is all hard work. Sorry for the shortness here – I am real tired at the moment after returning for a 500 mile drive doing more planning and site prep on the SDAD event. It is going to be awesome…….

I learned today that the Tennessee state record smallmouth bass was caught out of the Nolichucky River right at this campground…. lovely water…

I think Scott has it – gets it and will prevail.

More later woodsmen friends.

[Carl Russell]

In the case of the boss horse, this animal is making life or death decisions, and the insubordination of a youngster could be detrimental to the success of the heard. The physical control exerted by the boss can be justified, even if the leadership eventually is not successful.

In the case of a 4yr old work horse that is acting up, the perceived insubordination may have to do with the fact that this horse is just a renegade, but it is my feeling that if you’re going to grab a two-hander to re-establish yourself as some sort of boss horse, you better be certain that the behavior is not just the reaction of a horse that is not getting the style of leadership that they have gotten from you in the past.

If for some reason you are over-tired, short on cash, fighting off a cold, been spending too many hours running the kids around to events, or some other frustration, and you are just placing too rigid expectations on this animal, then pounding on them is nothing more than a venting of those frustrations. It may be, and often is, effective because the animal is hardwired to respond submissively, and once the frustration is vented the person is often less edgy.

I have been there, and I have learned that the “punky” energy that a four year old can have is exactly the kind of energy that I want to harness in the woods. However, it requires steadfast focus, patience, indomitability, and humility, which are hard enough to come by by themselves, but in combination they require commitment of purpose.

The reality is we have good days, and bad days, learn our lessons, and move on.

[Jim Ostergard]

What an awesome thread! In my limited experience, it is all about where I am at on the day of work. A couple of years ago I had Rusty and another horse at a barn some distant from my house. Monday morning and all the way to the barn I was getting more and more up-tight. Had three jobs going and couldn’t figure out which landowner would be less pissed off at me as I had been real slow getting things done. Got out of the truck, walked over to the fence and they both turned and walked out to the pasture. They sure picked up on my vibe. Back to the truck, a cup of tea and some calming thoughts then we were able to get off. As a logger with the unfortunate almost locked in production mentality I always have my best days when I allow me and Rusty to just do what we have to do and stay in the present. He is super at those time. I cannot stress again how much knowledge and introspection has gone into this thread and to me this is a major part of what our community is about.
jimbojim

[Rick Alger]

They remember their last pull.

If the horse was freighted on his last pull the last time you used him, he’ll remember. And at the start of the next day he’ll have a different attitude and a lot more energy.

Now, I’d work him in familiar surroundings with light logs before I worked him seriously off the farm. When I did work him I’d go easy and end the day with a fairly light log.

[Scott G]

Just thought I’d give everyone an update before I forget. He is moving out fine, focused. A little edgy but not beyond what you would expect from a young punk that had a bad day. I have a rededicated focus on him when we’re working and he seems to appreciate that,….. as well as the 5′ stock whip he can see in my back pocket. Haven’t pulled it out but he knows that it is there….. 😉

Thanks everyone for some great discussion on this.

Take care,
Scott

[OldKat]

@Carl Russell 10510 wrote:

Scott, I have had several of these experiences over the years. It is often so unexplainable, especially in comparison to other much better days, that I have found myself pondering all of the things that you have already mentioned.

For me it usually works its way back to what did I do that was different. Was I distracted by people(LO) watching? Was I trying too hard to make up for lost time? Did I push back too hard when he leaned into me when I was harnessing? Was I too unyielding?

The fact that the attitude persists, leads me to believe that the problem resides in the relation between teamster and horse. In my experiences it tends to come down to the horse having one of those days where they feel they need to assert something extra, and me being too rigid. Not having the patience and flexibility that is required sometimes to get to the other side where the horse once again trusts me. This usually is made very clear the next day when I have redoubled my resolve to focus on the horse and what the horse needs, and miraculously I have a completely different horse.

Just my thoughts, Carl

Once again someone posts something on DAP that I have been struggling with. Excellent observations Sir Carl.

Recently I had noticed my mares being “pushy” and rude towards not only each other, but with their pasture mates which consists of an older gelding and two Angus bulls; one mature and the other a long yearling AND my wife and me. I had previously posted in another thread about how one of my mares had kicked the older gelding and as a result the pecking order changed. Since then both mares have hammered old Hobo so consistently that I finally had to put him in a separate pen, by himself.

However about the time that I decided they could no longer run together, one of the mares (Rachel) cornered him in his stall and tried to kick him. When she did he wheeled and hit his left eye on the hay rack. At first it just watered, but within a few days it became irritated. Eventually it became so inflamed that the vet had to be called in. Diagnosis: uveitis complicated by a fungal infection. He has been at the vet’s office 3 of the past 6 weeks and gets treated at 3:30 AM every morning before I head off to work and at 7:30 PM when I get home. He is also wearing a Guardian UV blocking mask. Four treatments a day would be ideal, but when you work 60 miles away from home there is only so much you can do. Then throw in a crushing drought, and all that entails, temperatures that were 18 to 20 degrees above “normal” (whatever that is) for most of June and July, frustration that my early retirement just went bye-bye, etc, etc. Anyway, all of this started getting to me and I really started resenting Rachel for adding this additional burden to my already growing list of woes.

I know she is pretty much just being a horse and has assumed the role of Boss Hoss, when I am not present … but still, whenever she would lay her ears back and bare her teeth at one of the other animals I found myself wanting to punish her. Soon her attitude towards me started changing, too. She basically became what Jason referred to as a “punk”. . Within the confines of my everyday dealings with Rachel (and to a degree with Maggie) I had started looking for opportunities to find fault with her. It wasn’t long until she picked up on this and started acting up. She seemed to be going out of her way to be confrontational with me and that was making me even madder. I could tell that Maggie was taking it all in as well and even she started getting “punky”. Finally, about a week ago I decided 2 things; 1) I am the Boss and 2) I need to start acting like it.

The first thing I did was tell myself; “slow down” every time I was around the horses so that they couldn’t pick up on my anxiety and frustrations with the extra care I was having to give Hobo, as well as the other issues that were not really even related to anything the mares were doing. Next I changed the routine around the lot. Rather than letting the mares run loose while I am working with Hobo, or doing anything else, I have decided to halter both mares the minute I walk through the front gate. I tie them up and make them stand tied while I am doing anything else (including while they are eating, which I was already doing) and only when I am ready to leave do they get untied. I don’t let Rachel play Boss Hoss and run everybody else ragged while I am around. The kicking, running, biting and squealing has virtually disappeared. I am calmer, they are calmer and suddenly they are much more receptive to working with me and for me.

I think that there is always some sort of psychological dynamic to consider when dealing with any living being and horses certainly are no exception.

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