Advice On Cutting Large Trees?(Includes discussion of personal hang-ups) (Trees!)

[Jim Ostergard]

Good discussion on hung trees. Learned a few things that I will try. I like Mitch have done a lot with the skidder and have to really think differently with the horse. I wear a vest on which I sewed a couple of nylon wedge pouches. It allows me to carry as many as six wedges although I usually have four with me in a range of sizes. It has a hook for my tape and pockets for the first aid stuff, cell phone and my pipe.
With all this rain and 40-60 mph gusts will no doubt mean lots more spruce blowdowns on the shore. Mostly skidder work for now but a lot of it is hourly. Dangerous work for sure and a lot of thinking is required for each tree removal.

[Carl Russell]

Tristan got me thinking of a few more tricks. If the tree is tipped in the right direction, but hung in another tree, there are several things I do.

Sometimes just undercutting the hinge on one side or the other will allow the tree to swing or roll in that direction. The same action can be used to release the opposite side of the roll as well.

If the hinge is cut and the butt is still on the stump, I will place my face-cut wedge on the ground behind the stump. I place a wedge in the front cut and drive under the tree from front to back. This will cause the tree to slide across the stump, hopefully landing on the wedge, which hopefully acts as a ski and the tree slides down out of the crown it is hung in. You want to be stepping back out of the way in good order. Sometimes I will use this as a place to hitch on the team, as the butt will slide off the stump a lot easier then it will once it drops off into soft dirt, but often it is amazing what the horses cam move if they have it moving, and can keep it moving.

If you know the butt will be coming off the stump and there is a good chance for a hang-up, placing the face-cut wedge in a place where it can act as a ski will also help if you have to pull it down.

Sometimes you just can’t get the butt up out of soft ground, so I will cut it off just above the ground, driving a few wedges in to keep the saw from pinching, and to make sure that I cut all the way through. Then when I hook up, I place a ski in the direction of pull, pull the newly cut butt off of the stuck section onto the ski, and move out.

This can also be done in a little more exaggerated way by making a level cut a foot, or more off the ground, then an open-mouthed cut away from the direction of pull. The cuts should not be made all the way through, leaving hinge wood. This way when you pull on it, the cut will open up and the bottom block will fall over, giving a big advantage for starting the pull. This can also be done by driving a wedge into the back-cut and can be a way of taking the tree down a little bit more without hitching animals to it.
This method is more for mid-sized trees, as large diameter trees don’t fold that easy, AND you can be losing substantial volume.

Carl

[Rick Alger]

I agree with one of Carl’s earlier posts. The best idea is to plan your trails ahead so you can go with the natural lean.

But in a pinch here’s a few more wrinkles.

If it’s hung up but still on the stump, plan which side of the stump you will roll it to and put some sturdy hardwood rails next to the stump pointing in the direction you are going to pull. That will keep the butt out of the ground and make it easier to pull.

If the butt is driven into the ground, bore out a large channel in the butt parallel to the ground and aimed in the direction you are going to pull. Put a stout hardwood rail in the channel. Cut the sides of the channel so the butt slumps onto the rail and straddles it. May need an axe so the saw doesn’t get pinched. Use snatch blocks to increase your pulling power.

[mitchmaine]

heres another one. if the hung tree won’t pull or roll out of the other tree, hook up a snatch block and pull the hung up tree towards the base of the tree its hung in (or backwards). It works half the time. And you can put a roll on it.

on second thought, do not try this method at all. its dumb. i take it for granted everyone here works in the woods and i know that isn’t true. this is one of those methods you have to feel your way through, and the risk, of course, is that you pull the tree back up and it comes over backwards and kills you, so let me do the stupid stuff and i’ll try and keep my mouth shut and my advice to myself in the future. sorry.

And like Tristan says, a push pole is a great tool. A forked sapling 12-15 feet long caught under a limb or a knot works wonders. We just cradled it, cupped in two hands in our laps and use your legs, if that didn’t work push it up on a peavey. I probably pushed more wood over with a pole than with wedges.
Cutting big frozen red oak was the worst. Especially if it had a sweep or a lean to it. No matter how deep you cut your scarf, you couldn’t finish the backcut before it started to go and sometimes it would split clear to the first limb. Very scary.
Some would wrap two twists of chain with a binder around the trunk to keep it from splitting. The guys that showed me how to cut never made a bore cut. You can’t make a plunge cut with a crosscut saw, and old dogs don’t listen to new tricks. Their chainsaws even had handles on the end of the bar for the other guy.
Scotts trigger is the way to go. Finish both sides of the cut, set your wedges, snip the back, and away she goes.
Cutting wood here on this computer is much easier than it is out back.:D

[Scott G]

George,

I carry 5″ K&H and 8″ Steel caps in my wedge pouch. Both double tapered. I like the lift. I keep a few 12″ rifled wedges in the rig for special occasions.

Tree jacks rock but they are expensive. I’ve played around with bottle jacks some and they work, but after using a friend’s Silvey several years back its really hard to compare the two side by side. Someday I might buy one of their new minature ones. Don’t need a big one as I don’t fell much 8′ dbh, 200′ tall D-fir 😀 You can accomplish amazing things with just a stack of wedges…

You basically cut a large, thick pie slice out of the back cut to fit the jack into. Pretty easy to do, hard to visualize without a pic/diagram.

For hangers, cutting the majority of your hinge will often cause the tree to roll on its own, as has been mentioned. Otherwise, there is another reason I carry a 4 1/2′ peavey with me in the woods, usually pretty easy to roll them out with one after you’ve nipped the hinge.

If you’ve really stuffed it, pulling ’em down is the last option and normally there should be some time for pause after that, as your felling plan should be re-visited. Prior planning prevents PPP…

[Tim Harrigan]

Thanks, guys, for this great thread. A lot of great suggestions here for some of the things that make felling and skidding such an interesting challenge, particularly when working with draft animals. I have to say I am usually like George when pulling down a hung tree, I tend to long chain it. I just picture it scooting out when it comes free and taking out my guys. I am not sure if one ever actually has scooted on me, but when they crash to the ground and shake the earth I don’t want the press my luck too far. And I think I can do a lot more with wedges with a little more thought and planning. I have been a little too fast to hand one off to a loader tractor when I’ve buried a butt, but I think I will stick with it a little longer and try some of the techniques you guys bring to the job.

I am going to re-read these posts a few more time and see if I can up my game. This is DAP at it’s best. Where else could you find a group of pros willing to share their knowledge and experience like this? Wow! This site rocks.

[Carl Russell]

So while we’re tossing out these odd tips and tricks, here goes one more.

I learned this from Soren Erikson at a felling workshop back in the early 80’s.

For a really big tree, or any tree really, that is leaning back, after you finish your face cut, bore into the left side of the tree (facing toward the lay of the fall).

Set the thickness of your hinge and begin cutting toward the back of the tree. You will be cutting with the top of the bar, so as you move away from the hinge, your sawdust chips will fill the kerf and stay in there.

Amazingly, because you have taken wood that was solid and cut it into small pieces, you have added surface area, so the chips will actually take up more space now than when they were in there are part of the tree. Because of this, they will develop some upward pressure.

If for some reason the tree sets back before you get your wedge set, or if the wedge is spit out, then the chips will prevent the kerf from closing completely, leaving enough room to start a wedge again.

Once the tree is felled, you can see the chips expanding. Try it sometime.

Carl

[Farrier]

Per the original post, I will disagree with the statement that “the location of the wedge shouldn’t matter” because it does matter. I am sure most guys here have alot more expierance horselogging than I do but I carry a USFS class C faller card which means I am qualified to cut any tree on a wildfire, mostly hazard trees like burning snags and the like. I am not trying to say I know everything, just saying I have taken the necessary classes and logged enough hours on the fireline to achieve the highest level of a Forest Service faller. It is based on GOL.

When you set a wedge close to the hinge you are getting alot of lift but it is harder to drive and there is the possibility of breaking the hinge wood and actually sending the tree over backwards. When I fall a big tree my usual method is to make my open face notch and then bore through the center of the notch all the way through the tree. Next I set a wedge at the back of the tree, usually a hardhead with the steel cap, in the slot i just bored. Then I start my falling cuts on the danger side by boring into the side of the tree making sure I leave the proper amount of hinge wood and making sure I bore just deep enough to get through to my original plunge cut but not deep enough to get my wedge. After boring to the proper depth, I cut towards the back of the tree and remove all the holding wood on that side. I drive my first wedge in as far as I can and set another one if I think I’ll need it. Next I move to the safe side of the tree and repeat the cuts I made on the danger side and if the tree doesn’t go when I take out the rest of the holding wood, I just keep knocking wedges till it does. Just to clarify, please don’t confuse holding wood with hinge wood.

I hope this was written clear enough for ya’ll to understand. It is hard sometimes to put your method of doing something into words.

[Does’ Leap]

Farrier, I agree with you assessment on the position of wedges. When I wrote my GOL instructor said it doesn’t matter, he clarified that it would lift the tree no matter where it was positioned. The difference, as you wrote, has a lot to do with leverage and resistance. When I feel like I can bring a tree over with just wedges and no shims, I’ll position my wedges closer to the hinge and might thicken my hinge a bit. I have broken a hinge this way and it is scary. On a differnt note, how come you bore through your notch all the way to the back of the tree? I do that on larger trees where my bar doesn’t reach to the middle of the tree when boring from both sides. How often to you hit your first shim when doing your side bore cuts? Finally, where do you get your steel capped wedges (I am tired of mushrooming mine)?

Scott, regarding the jack, I envision carving out a little cubby in the side of the tree to hold the jack. The top and bottom of the cubby, perpendicular to the length of the tree, would be parallel with the sides tapered toward the center of the tree (is this what you meant by “pie shaped”?)

Lastly, when I have hung up trees stuck in the dirt, I position the chain in such as way as to roll the tree and pull at a 45 degree angle to the lean. If it doesn’t come down in one pull, I will reposition my horses and chain and pull from the opposite side. It has worked well so far. I am hoping for no more hung up trees this year (something to strive for), but will certainly try the approaches mentioned here when I do.

George

[Farrier]

George, I get my wedges from bailey’s. The 12″ ones are about 12 bucks. They are GREAT. They don’t mushroom and seldom break and you can drive them with as big a hammer as you want. As for your question about why I bore through the notch, its is so that I can set a wedge while the tree is mostly intact. I set my first wedge before cutting any holding wood so I have lift on the tree from the very begining. I have never had a tree set back on a wedge so bad that I couldn’t drive it home with this method. Lastly, I have only ever hit one wedge using my method. It really is easier to cut to the right depth than you might think.

[TaylorJohnson]

Guys I tried posting something on this a while back and hit a button and lost it …. you could say I was a little mad . I carry 2 small wedges , a medium , and 2 large ones . Most of the time there are 3 ways you can fall a tree with all points in-between as possibilities. Sometimes you have to pound wedges like crazy but most of the time if you plan your trails and strip right there is no need. I do carry a small maul style hammer in a standard size hammer holder to pound with its handle is no longer than a regular hammer. I have a maul in the trailer that is an eight pound splitting head on a short handle. With horses it is a head ache to hang big trees . I have gotten them down with come a longs and high lift jacks being used like a wench ( with cleveses and chains hooked on ) . I hook a little high on an anchor point and crank one till it wont then the other , then one then the other ……… you can get a big tree down like this. I have also twisted them out of the hang . You bore into the tree that is hung make a good size hole then cut as long a pole as you need to and use it like a lever to twist it out of the tree. Be mind full of were you bore your hole , think of your twist and give your self enough room to get as long a rotation as possible.
I would never cut a tree that had one hanging in it . When I was little boy my Dad did this and got a broken neck for his trouble, he had to crawl around for almost a year just to go to the bathroom . They said he would never walk again but hell he is still walking and that was 30 some years ago. Sometimes I slap a hanger with another tree to get it out .. man any thing but cutting the one it is in. Carl you knock that off and so should the rest of ya doing it. Carl if I did not like ya I would not say anything but man it would make me sick if your boys had to go though watching their Dad crawl around for a year. This game is more likely to get you than not but man that is like asking for it. There has never been one I could not get down but if there was and my option was cutting the one it was in it would rot there and if the land owner did not like it he could cut it .
Ben I looked at a short hydraulic jack and thought of doing the same thing you did , now I will for sure . Taylor Johnson

[Scott G]

@Does’ Leap 22894 wrote:

Scott, regarding the jack, I envision carving out a little cubby in the side of the tree to hold the jack. The top and bottom of the cubby, perpendicular to the length of the tree, would be parallel with the sides tapered toward the center of the tree (is this what you meant by “pie shaped”?)
George

George, a “cubby” could be a way to describe it. Your backcut would either be the floor or the ceiling of the cubby. Both floor & ceiling cuts need to be absolutely parallel & flat to seat the jack correctly.

You need to be 100% on your boring skills to attempt this.

I think you’ll find you can accomplish anything you need to do with wedges…

[Does’ Leap]

I welded a plate on a bottle jack I had kicking around and jacked over 2 back-leaners today. It worked great and saved a lot of pounding on wedges. As I jacked up the tree, I set wedges, just in case the jack kicked out. So far so good. It is a lot faster and a lot less work. It is too early to say that I am “jack happy”, but I am leaning in that direction.

George

[Sojourner]

As one about to start some professional Oregon logging (12-34″ Doug fir), and with only a little experience on my former woodlot in WI, this website and especially the techniques you all are discussing on this thread are just what I’m looking for. I’m committed to low-impact, precision logging like the rest of you, though I’ll be using a Farmi winch and small tractor (plus arches).

One question, on putting a wedge into the back side of a through-the-face-cut bore hole, why not put the wedge in after you set the hinge with the side-bore cuts, thereby not having to worry about hitting the wedge tip with your saw?

The discussion of dealing with hang-ups is fascinating, as the trees I’ll be dealing with are tall and closely spaced. How about this idea–secure the end of a long line to a tree, throw the other end over (perpendicular to) the hung tree, walk around and throw it back under the tree, walk back and pull it through a snatch block, then to your team (or winch in my case)? Might be safer and more effective than using a peavy on the butt.

Anyone have advice for dealing with very tall, closely spaced trees?

[Carl Russell]

One question, on putting a wedge into the back side of a through-the-face-cut bore hole, why not put the wedge in after you set the hinge with the side-bore cuts, thereby not having to worry about hitting the wedge tip with your saw?

This is why we buy plastic wedges. I hit my wedges all the time, but I agree, I also always set my hinge with a bore cut, then cut all the way to the back of the tree, on the danger side, in essence cutting out half of the back cut. I set my wedge where I want it, drive it in tight, then enter my previous bore, or bore anew on the safe side, cutting to the back of the tree, this time leaving trigger wood. Step back, survey,pound another wedge in if I need, or tap the first one, clip the trigger, and walk away.
….

Anyone have advice for dealing with very tall, closely spaced trees?

Clear cut…..:D

If they aren’t too big, I just tip them into their neighbor and pull them down, at least to get started. Also I make a hole by felling a few, then start tipping the others nearby into it.

Carl

p.s. I just picked up a couple of Hard Heads yesterday to give them a try…. $16.

Also ordered 2 of the Sandviks at $35/ea I can get 6mo-1 year out of them, using them on pretty much every tree. They really stand up, so I think it is worth it.

[Author]

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