Advise Needed: Trimming "Problem" Draft Horse

[Theloggerswife]

Currently my husband trims our Belgian’s feet. We have an older team 15 and 18 year olds. We have only owned them for about a year. Our 18 year old stands there like a champ and pretty much falls asleep when he gets his feet done.

Our 15 year old is a pain in the hind quarter….He throws my husband around like a rag doll. He starts to sweat and gets all nervous about getting his feet done. He tends to be on the nervous side compared to my other horse. We purchased stocks with hope that this would help us with this problem~NOT! He goes all crazy in the stocks. He is like a 1500 # crazy wild horse once you pick up his foot. He would stand in the stocks all day long if you didn’t pick up his feet.

I received some advice that I need to pick up his feet everyday…which I do, and he is fine for me cleaning them out. Once he understands that he is going to get trimmed all heck breaks loose.

I am sure there is no farrier that will want to deal with him, and I am about to loose my free farrier (my husband). So anyone that has any pointers on this I would appreciate it.

[TBigLug]

Positive Reinforcement. Easy to say, sometimes harder to accomplish. Maybe try picking up and picking out one foot at a time. Then trim it while it’s up there. Keep it on the lighter side make sure it’s a good experience. I know, I know, it’s easier said than done, but with alot of patience and some time he should come around.

[jen judkins]

Missy, I trim my own horses, all 6 of them. I don’t have a great back to begin with, so I sympathize whole-heartedly with your husband. I was lucky to get Peanut when he was 3 months old, so while it has been rough at times, in general he is very good now. I can’t imagine retraining a 15 yo draft with ‘issues’. Makes my back hurt just thinking about it.:eek:

I do however have a saddle horse that is much like your draft. Manny is more nervous than most and can get really wound up if you don’t pay attention. He has been a terror to trim and was getting worse and worse, when I finally took over his trimming. When I did my trimming course with KC Lapierre, I brought him along for practice. KC spent alot of time with me triing to figure out what the trouble was. The best we can figure is that at some point along the way, Manny started to associate discomfort with the farrior and being as skeptical as he is in other ways, this made for more and more anxiety, and therefore more bad behavior.

We still have a long way to go before I would call him easy, but he is showing improvement and I haven’t given up on his trimming yet. These are the things that worked for me and him.

1. Before a trim I always work him lightly. This might be a relaxing trail ride or some ground work. Nothing exhausting, just enough work so that he gets the message that I control where his feet go. Ever see the ‘Man from Snowy River”? When he drives the wild herd all the way around to the right, then all the way around to the left…then they just follow him home. That’s leadership. Oops I’m digressing…

2. I try to be considerate of how I am handling his feet and his balance. I try to warn him which foot I am going to ask for by running my hand across his rump or shoulder and then wait for him to arrange himself to his best advantage. This might mean widening his stance, or turning around to face the barn door or his buddies….whatever. I try to let him be in control of as much as I can. I don’t use a stock and I don’t cross tie. I tie him to the hitching post with a single lead and sometimes if he is really anxious I will simply drop the line on the ground, so he can move around. I close the barn door though;).

3. If he wants to put his foot down, I let him. I try to anticipate this and do it before he tries on his own as much as possible. This has made a huge difference to him. Some horses are just convinced they are dinner and do not like being restrained in any way. I try to avoid grabbing and holding. I use a hoof stand and while his foot is in the cradle, I am barely touching him. Its his responsibility to keep the foot there. Grabbing and restraining only add to his anxiety. The trust has to go both ways. If you are assuming you are gonna have a fight, you likely will.

4. I try to be quick. I rarely do more than two feet at a time and I try to limit my trim time to 20 minutes. The less time he has to get worked up the better. In the beginning I was sacrificing a good trim for a good’ experience, if you get my drift;).

5. I try to work ‘with’ him whenever possible. In the back, for instance, he will get tired of having one foot up and will offer the other. I say ‘thank you very much’ and move to the other foot for awhile. Again it is a small way to give them some control over the situation.

6. I try very, very hard not to lose my temper or composure. When I do, I always lose rapport and have to start from scratch. Anger and frustration just do not help and will go a long ways to confirm to your horse that you are not friendly and should be avoided at all costs.

You notice I am not offering to come over and help (ack, my back just went into spasm:D)!! Seriously, try to think about the trim from your horse’s perspective. See where you can modify your approach or make him more confident or comfortable. Maybe having his teammate nearby would make him less anxious..or changing the location of where you trim would help. It will be a slow process, so by all means look for any little thing that he offers that is better and be quick to reward that little try. Good Luck! Jennifer.

[Carl Russell]

Missy,
I have been trimming and shoeing my own for 22 years and I will give you a few pointers that I have learned.
Don’t sweat it, yourself. Sure they need good feet, but don’t bring your own anxiety about “good” hoof care into it. The handler needs to be confident. Meaning if you are unsure about anything, don’t work on it. Only work on what you are comfortable. One problem may be that your husband may not work with him enough for the horse to develop a sense of trust.

Like training a gun dog, if you are nervous that the dog will be scared of the gun, then he probably will be.

Take it in small steps. Maybe the foot needs a lot of work, but only do what you can do with ease, and success.

I differ from Jen somewhat in that I never let the horse have any say in this situation. It is my initiative and I portray that to them.

In that regard I never wait for the horse to ask for its foot back. I pick the foot up, and before the horse has time to react, I set it back down comfortably. This is where I start, and I stay there for as long as I need to, each time paying attention to the horse to see if it is learning to trust my initiative to hold its foot.

When I get the sign that it is relaxing about my holding the foot, I extend the length of time, and the extent to which I fool with the foot. It may seem like a lot of extra time especially if you think the foot is in bad shape, and you only have a few minutes, but progress can be made, and eventually it will be part of the foundation communication that you will use while working the animal.

The point is to establish that you can be trusted with the foot, that you are completely comfortable with your purpose, and that this is a lesson that you are teaching your student, the horse.

Remember to quit when you have a good feeling about progress. A small successful step is way more valuable than trying to complete the whole project. There is more than one initiative going on here, one involving the foot, one involving the horse.

Also don’t take it personally if the horse won’t let you do it. There is no reason why the horse should be inclined to let you hold its foot. You have to overcome the distrust and show that you are worthy.

Good luck, Carl

[Iron Rose]

All horses are different and what works for one may not work for another. Some are just plain nasty but most are just plain spoiled. Most likley your horse as gotten away with taking his foot away and every time he dose it reinforces the problem. He needs to shown that his actions are not acceptable. Over the past 35 years of shoeing all types of horses there have been some real bad ones, but all left with iron on. I won’t go into details as not to start a big argument about how. My advice is to find a farrier/trainer that will handle problem horses and let him do his job. The second option is to use some trangulizer as needed (although I have never seen a horse learn anything with drugs )

[Anonymous]

maybe just back off that horse enough and work on the anxiety. rub those legs, scratch at the pasterns. get him more relaxed. its already been said, if he expects a fight ….and, what is a shoeing stock but a statement anyway. it may take awhile, and he may not have perfect feet for that while, here it is, touch and rub, can’t do too much. then start with a fat thick cotton rope, lift and drop till no resistance, lift and place that foot down on the hoof stand. make these sessions short. the toe can be bevel’d back from the top, and flares can be nipped from the top. so lift up forward, place down,over and over. a 15 year old can learn, yes he can, and the handler can do it without frustration. thats why we have them anyway, to make us better people. bob h.

[jen judkins]

I certainly don’t disagree with your opinion, Iron Rose. If there is someone with the power and experience to get the point across in an effective manner, well that would be money very well spent.

As it is, at least in my area, good farriors are hard to come by and most of them have schedules to keep and backs to preserve for future income potential. I’ve seen very experienced farriors work wonders with a problem horse, but I have also seen horses get much worse with time because the farrior doesn’t take the time to enlist the horse’s cooperation, due to time constraints or whatever. Besides which I think it is unfair to expect the farrior to manage behavior problems, except of course in the case you are describing of someone who does that for a living.

For myself, I have to think of ways to seek cooperation, as I have no way of out manuvuering or overpowering my horses in anyway, except psychologically and mentally. So I have to be smarter and more creative in my approach. Giving another creature a way to feel they have control over their environment to the extent it is safe and productive, is not ‘spoiling’ them….it is simply away to get along.

Timing is key as it is the release that teaches. As you say, if the horse always gets a release when they take their foot away, that’s what they learn. There are many ways to teach a horse to pick up their foot and stand quietly…all have merit and as you say, every horse is different.

[Carl Russell]

I wanted to add that although it is my objective not to “hold” the foot, but to have the horse hold it where I want it, there is a point where I don’t take any more nonsense. This is definitely only after the horse has shown me that they know better, but I do have to say that this horse IS going to have to understand that I am going to work on the foot as long as I need to.

As in all aspects of working with animals, there is a balance (hence “craft” or “art”) between getting cooperation, and making expectations clear. It can become clear to some horses that because of their power, they are in control, and that is unacceptable, in my mind.

However, I don’t prescribe to overpowering the animal, I do believe that with a combination of guidance toward acceptable behavior, and correction of unacceptable behavior, a balance can be had.

At least that has been my experience, and it is entirely within the context of my own farm.

Shoeing and hoof care is just one of my chores, and I am not under time constraints of schedule, or professional expectations, so I can take more time to focus on the behavior issues of my own horses.

Carl

[Theloggerswife]

I will print out all your responses and share them with my husband. The horses are “mine” and he proclaims to only want to help me with them when necessary. So now I can see a collective amount of issues that may be causing this behavior. Since the horse is 15 years old…it isn’t the first time he has had his feet done. So, I guess the finger can be pointed at us as much as the horse.

After a 10 hour day of logging, my husband gets a quick supper and we head to the barn to do the battle of the wits with the draft horse. We dread it and full expect a fight to the finish. We are tired before we begin and time is usually an issue. We get frustrated, the horse gets no where and someone ends up sleeping on the couch!!! So now I can see many things we can do to change ourselves to help the horse along.

Keep the suggestions coming, because it is obvious that we need them if anyone else has something to add!

[OldKat]

@Iron Rose 3458 wrote:

All horses are different and what works for one may not work for another. Some are just plain nasty but most are just plain spoiled. Most likley your horse as gotten away with taking his foot away and every time he dose it reinforces the problem. He needs to shown that his actions are not acceptable. Over the past 35 years of shoeing all types of horses there have been some real bad ones, but all left with iron on. I won’t go into details as not to start a big argument about how. My advice is to find a farrier/trainer that will handle problem horses and let him do his job. The second option is to use some trangulizer as needed (although I have never seen a horse learn anything with drugs )

One of my mares was starting to develop some similar habits to the hombre in question & I knew I had to do something about it. Background: I seldom use a farrier, though they are plentiful in my part of the country. Most in our area are undependable (i.e. they fail to show up when they say they will) & tend to be harsh when a horse begins to get antsy. Now I do not baby my animals, I am FIRM with them. However, I’ll be darned if some fool is going to beat on my horses. (NOT that I think Iron Rose is advocating that)

Anyway I trim my own horses hooves, but have never done my own shoeing. I had one farrier, a real dependable guy from South Africa, who I had used a few times when I had slipped a disc in my lower back and couldn’t do ANY lifting. I told him in advance that Maggie was starting to jerk her foot away from me at times, would lean on me at other times and was getting a little snorty with me. When he suggested using a sedative I was skeptical, and told him so. He said he just believed in giving them enough to take the edge off, but not so much that they were dead on their feet.

The first time he came to trim he gave both youngsters a small dose of 1/2 Ace & 1/2 Romp-em (spelling?) and we had no problems with either. The next time he came back he did the same thing, but this time we put on their first set of shoes. Same results. This was exactly this time last year. The next few times they were shod they with an Amish trainer in South Texas, but he told that there were NO problems. Since I have had them back (late April) I have pulled the shoes back off and trimmed their feet probably 4 or 5 times with no problems.

I am not saying that the sedatives “trained” them, and I would have no idea if it work in this case or not. However, maybe it calmed Maggie down just enough to let her see that no one was trying to hurt her. Overall I avoid using shortcuts and I think of using sedatives as a shortcut. Still it is possible that it did the trick in this one case. It is also possible that she responded to the Amish guy and when I got her back she was okay with her feet being handled. At any rate she is a joy to work with now, as much as trimming hooves can be a joy anyway.

[PestoPower]

ah yes, I know what you are going thru…

We dealt with a rescued PMU mare who had actually been trimmed on a tilt table up in Manitoba. They use it for cattle. Horse stands next to table in vertical position, is strapped down and the table is tilted to horizontal. Then the feet are done with a grinder.
So imagine our job trying to convince her we weren’t going to kill her when we handled her feet. She was pushing 17h and refused to move an inch. Time…months of work, bribes…you name it. Slowly she figured out we weren’t going to kill her. This was a mare that was truly afraid plus an edge of stubborn. If she thought you were losing your temper she decided to get very stubborn. Our farrier hated working with her, but he did her fronts. He march up to her give her a hello slap on the back and expected her to lift her foot. No bull. She figured out exactly what was expected, and did as expected. This what we did with her. I had one of my workers try to pick up her hind feet every day. Just touch them etc. Eventually he could hold her foot while the farrier trimmed. If the farrier attempted to do that she would plant her feet. Eventually we were able to have the groom pick up her foot and hand it to the farrier. It was peculiar but worked. Eventually we figured it out and she has since gone to a new home.
The other mare we dealt with was a gypsy cob straight out of the field in Ireland. She had a reputation for being tough to handle. Had been mistreated along the way. With her I was the only one who could handle her feet. My back still hasn’t recovered. You could not lose your temper or raise your voice, heck you couldn’t even sigh, or she’d plant her foot and that was it. Eventually I got her to the point where I could trim her fronts. I had exactly 3 minutes or so each time I lifted her foot. That was how we did it. I’d pick it clean put it down, pick it up trim sole and frog then let it down again…on until I had rasped. If we deviated or I tried to insist she keep the foot up longer then it was over. Plenty of people had gotten into this mare, I’m sure of it. She would tremble like a leaf. The hind feet were impossible…finally when out equine dentist was out working and sedated her with valium to do her teeth. I quickly went in and did her hind feet before it wore off. It helped relax her so she could move past the terror. Unfortunately it also involved me holding her up 😮

That’s what we have done. It is a fine line. Some are actually just trying to get one over on you, others have only been done in stocks and people never took the time to work with them out of stocks. With our babies we start with their feet from day one. From there I actually do their feet while they are eating from a bucket. It teaches them that I am still in charge, even when they are eating. It also teaches them to associate feet with positive reinforcement (eating). Works for us.

Good luck with your fella. Enlist the help of someone before your husband gets hurt.

Beth

[Anonymous]

Hi all – thank you for all your invaluable advice!!!

I have a similar problem. I have a very stubborn mare whose back feet I cannot even pick out. Since I got them last fall – she has been like this. I can pick out her front feet (and she’ll cooperate with the farrier on the front), but she kicks back or pulls front when I get her back feet off the ground. Shortly after I got this team I had an accident and broke my back and pelvis (3 places in each) – so they were basically unhandled all winter. And – I do not have the strength to hang on to her swinging her leg around. I’ve ended up on the ground several times (to which she calmly steps away and turns to smirk at me). The other mare doesn’t particularly like having her feet handled, but when I give her the chance to set it down every now and then – she stands fine. This one I can’t even get it off the ground for more than a second.

This last trim with the farrier, we had to use the rope-on-the-upper-gum trick. That seemed to calm her down enough to get them trimmed. But – I can’t do that by myself. I’ve tried picking up with the intent of putting it right back down – but she usually places me on the ground first. I’ve tried having my daughter hold her and offer treats for lifting the foot, but she gets real pushy for the treat.

Any suggestions???? How exactly would I use a cotton rope?

Thanks so much!!!!

[firebrick43]

The rope on the gum trick is a twitch and they do make twitches that you can apply and then clip to the halter so you can use them by yourself

We have 4 horse, 2 appy’s which we do drive/farm with, a riding paint, and 1 large Belgian that we pair with the appy’s to do the work.

The other horses I have no problems with but the Belgian we bought her when she was 14. She is our most trustworthy work horse, kids can crawl around her, knows the ropes and is gental. You can do her front feet fine but her backs you cant work on for some reason. I can tilt them up to clean them but not pick them up to trim them. I have tried running the cotton ropes over her neck and letting her abuse herself, we have worked with her feet for months on end, we have put her in stocks which she is completely comfortable in until you tie her back feet, she breaks the unbreakable straps. So I do what an oldtimer suggested to me.

I watch her walk or tip up her rear foot slightly so I can see how much needs taken off.
I take a scrap of plywood and walk her until her back foot is on it. Take a cheap 1 inch wood chisel and a ballpein hammer and “chisel” off the majority of excess hoof at a ~20-25 degree angle from horizontal. I then go back and to a second angle at 75-80 degrees at the front to round off the toe. And then wearing leather gloves will take a rasp without a handle on it and touch up the sharp edges, all while her foot is on the ground. I have a small section of 2/4 scrap that I make her walk on to do her heels or I just harness her to a cart and run her on the asphalt for a couple miles and that takes care of her heel.

She will move her foot sometimes but is not vicious about working on it and I dont get beat up. Works for both of us and the results are quite acceptable.

[OldKat]

@firebrick43 9082 wrote:

The rope on the gum trick is a twitch and they do make twitches that you can apply and then clip to the halter so you can use them by yourself

We have 4 horse, 2 appy’s which we do drive/farm with, a riding paint, and 1 large Belgian that we pair with the appy’s to do the work.

The other horses I have no problems with but the Belgian we bought her when she was 14. She is our most trustworthy work horse, kids can crawl around her, knows the ropes and is gental. You can do her front feet fine but her backs you cant work on for some reason. I can tilt them up to clean them but not pick them up to trim them. I have tried running the cotton ropes over her neck and letting her abuse herself, we have worked with her feet for months on end, we have put her in stocks which she is completely comfortable in until you tie her back feet, she breaks the unbreakable straps. So I do what an oldtimer suggested to me.

I watch her walk or tip up her rear foot slightly so I can see how much needs taken off.
I take a scrap of plywood and walk her until her back foot is on it. Take a cheap 1 inch wood chisel and a ballpein hammer and “chisel” off the majority of excess hoof at a ~20-25 degree angle from horizontal. I then go back and to a second angle at 75-80 degrees at the front to round off the toe. And then wearing leather gloves will take a rasp without a handle on it and touch up the sharp edges, all while her foot is on the ground. I have a small section of 2/4 scrap that I make her walk on to do her heels or I just harness her to a cart and run her on the asphalt for a couple miles and that takes care of her heel.

She will move her foot sometimes but is not vicious about working on it and I dont get beat up. Works for both of us and the results are quite acceptable.

Innovative. I would have never thought about doing it that way, but it sounds like a workable solution for you.

I have zero problems trimming my mares feet, but I have a heck of time getting farriers out to do the work. (There are 14 of them in our county claiming to shoe horses full time, but most sit down at the Rockin’ B Cowboy Supply Store and complain all day that they can’t make a living in that business. Go figure!)

I trim the mares feet myself, but don’t do any shoes. Since I have disc between L 4 & 5 (I think) that tends to slip out when pushed too hard, I can’t always count on doing their feet when they need it. For a short term fix I take them out on asphalt for about a 2 or 3 mile walk, and BINGO … I buy another week to ten days for my back to heal up before I have to do their feet again. You do what you gotta do.

[Anonymous]

Wow – that’s interesting. This mare is like that – tolerant and compliant of everything except feet. Whatever works, huh? Thanks for your replies.

I’ve been working her more and more, getting the hooves just off the ground, then putting them back before she has a chance to take them back, gradually increasing the time up. Seems to work a lot better after we’ve been for a long drive. Funny what those wet collars will do… I guess I’ll just keep at it. I’d love to get to the point where I’m trimming them myself – but it’s been 20 years since I’ve done that with any regularity.

OldKat – I completely understand about the back – I broke mine T8, 10, 12 – last fall. It gets stiff and sore quite often now.

[Author]

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