Agroforesty/Includes pig production ideas

[goodcompanion]

@Countymouse 27527 wrote:

It is interesting that the ecology of this type of system is a concern. I agree that is is unlikely that these planted forests/orchards would be very similar to native forests. Ecology is such a subjective word to me in general, but that another topic entirely. Either way, I think it would be more fair to compare the ecological impact of this system to the more standard corn/soybean hog raising system rather than to native forest. In other words, is it more ecologically sound to raise hogs in planted trees at a low stocking density or is it more ecologically sound to use the ground as cropland and keep the hogs in confinement. Based on rough math, the carrying capacity of tree crops is at least the same, if not more, than the carrying capacity of cropland. Also entering into this would be the power required to till, plant, harvest, and store crops each and every year. This power could be produced from animals, of course, but feeding and housing these animals would require even more land and further reduce the efficiency of the cropland-confinement system.

PS. Personally, I have only ever raised pigs in confinement. I found it suprising that this system seems so possible. Maybe it shouldn’t be, as forests are where pigs came from, but it was to me. I am trying to recheck as much math as possible because I think J Russell Smith overstates his case a bit. He said in one part of the book that hogs could be stocked at 2 per mulberry tree, which would end up with 80 per acre. Maybe for a short time, but the math doesn’t support that this stocking rate is sustainable. Still, the system looks competative with corn for total calories per acre and produces a crop every year (unlike ground for corn, which is often cycled).

I think you should try it, document everything, and write a sequel to “Tree Crops.” Seriously. This is one of those Grand Ideas people talk and talk about but who has really got the gumption to try to take a theoretically workable idea and make it into a physical reality? And the chops to collect enough data that there is some science behind what you say, so that others can model their work off yours if they choose. Bet you can do it, Andy. This would be a good conservation innovation grant through NRCS.

[Robert MoonShadow]

I think ATTRA could help w/ a grant and/or expertise in keeping a scientific record of it. That way you could concentrate on the doing, and they can asist you w/ the measuring of it.

[Andy Carson]

I think this is a good idea especially if there is interest in it. Let’s say, just for argument, that I can streamline a system for raising hogs off of tree crops. Let’s further say that it could indeed produce 4-5 organic finished pigs per acre per year with no tillage and minimal maintainance. Would there be interest in such a system, given that it would take several years to get up to speed??? No sense working on a system that no one would implement, even if it reaches it’s goals… It sure makes alot of sense to me, but sometimes I am attracted to things no one else is.

[Carl Russell]

I know that Joel Salatin uses woodland pastures for his pigs. Primarily under oaks. Also Brown Boar Farm in Wells Vt has been raising their pigs in an oak forest.

I am not against the ecological foundation of feeding pigs, or even cattle on tree fruit or nuts. What I am against is the concept that it can be done in a “forest” setting. Just because there are trees doesn’t make it forestry. I take exception to the concept of “Agroforestry” purely because the agro part changes the ecosystem so significantly it is no longer a “forest”.

Be that as it may, I have considered planting Honey Locust on hedgerows for coppice fence posts, and leguminous feed. I also support the idea of putting pigs under fruit trees. I think that it could be managed as a wooded pasture.

The thing is that pigs do really well on grass as well. They are great for rooting under rotted and composting material as well. I think that the ideal would be a rotation of several different pasture types, based on season, including the nut grove, fruit orchard, compost piles, grassland, field crop clean-up, etc..

Carl

[Andy Carson]

I hear you, Carl, it’s a funny term. Maybe we should come up with a new one? “Agro-Grovery” “Agro-Orchardage” how about “Grovo-Piggery” 😀 I’m kidding of couse… Another thing you touched on is the tillage capability of the pig, and it sure would have been nice to have some “plows” that worked reguardless of weather this spring. I also think you are right about some field crops being needed for the pigs. The breeding sows would have to get through the winter on this, and some form of protein rich feed would lkely need grown as a supplement with the hogs. Still, though, it seems that the bulk of the energy could come from trees, and the amount of field crops could be a small fraction of what it is with corn/soybean factory system. Again, a good example of a small flexible system that is able to make use of a wide variety of natural “skills” of a particular animal. I googled up a phone number for Brown Boar farm and think I’ve give them a call and pick thier brain a bit. I will report back. You don’t happen to know, do you Carl, what kind of oaks these are or have a rough idea what kind of percentage of the trees in these wooded paddocks are oak? I saw a couple photos of some big trees on the brown boar website and am guessing these trees weren’t planted for the express purpose of raising hogs… It all factors into the feasability of the concept. Thanks for the contact info.

[Baystatetom]

Is what you had in mind?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQev3UoGp2M&feature=player_embedded
Kidding aside lets also not forgot that pigs are a highly invasive non-native to the U.S. which cause substantial damage to property and crops. All due care would have to be given to be sure they stayed confined.
Also reminded of the saying “whether you think you can or can’t you are usually right”.
~Tom

[Tim Harrigan]

I guess I would be more interested in silvopasture systems. Here is a link to a bulletin on it in the Northeast. http://www2.dnr.cornell.edu/ext/info/pubs/agroforestry/Silvopasturing3-3-2011.pdf

[Andy Carson]

I haven’t gotten ahold of enough farms to get a complete picture of all the ways that hogs are currently raised under tree cover, but I have learned some things. One method is to section off pre-existing forest into small paddocks and rotate groups of hogs through these at high stocking rates (30+ per acre). When the hogs are moved to a new paddock, so is a one ton feeder filled with hog ration, which is always kept full. It was hard to determine the percent of the diet that came from forage or mast in this system because of the omnipresence of supplemental feed. Also, determining how much more potential there might be for the woods to produce food is difficult because there isn’t always knowledge of the species or populations of trees in the paddocks (other than that some are oak). Again, I don’t know if this is the “standard” for this type of hog feeding, but am gaining a greater understanding of why the ecology of systems like this are brought into question. A planned system of feeding hogs primarily off of purpose planted and managed tree crops, at least in my mind, would be much different. The good news is that farmers and the public alike does seems to be interested in this idea. Also, there seems to be some room for improvement, which means I wouldn’t really be “reinventing the wheel.”

[Carl Russell]

Countymouse;27561 wrote:

I haven’t gotten ahold of enough farms to get a complete picture of all the ways that hogs are currently raised under tree cover, but I have learned some things.

…. but am gaining a greater understanding of why the ecology of systems like this are brought into question. A planned system of feeding hogs primarily off of purpose planted and managed tree crops, at least in my mind, would be much different. …

This is why I think the idea I want to work toward is a mosaic of different “habitats” and food sources. I usually keep my animals out year-round, but during the winter I do accumulate some manure. My dream is to build a manure composting structure near the barn, with pigs housing allowing access for the pigs to one bin at a time to gain some nutrients from the manure while turning it for me. Topping this building off with a green house to use the nitrogen and CO2 rich air is also a big part. I expect to supplement the pigs food with other purchased and garnered sources during that time of year, specifically with the purpose of using their energy to work for me in the manure.

Then during summer months I like the idea of putting them on grass and brushland in need of remediation. Again gathering at least a portion of their own food, but not all. We still bring portions to them. I like to put pressure on them to work for their livelihood by not giving them free-choice food.

We have let them work our gardens in both Spring and Fall seasons with good success.

I do like the idea of using the “wildlife” trees that I cultivate as part of my early successional woodlands, apples, nuts, and other mast producing species, but currently the only way I can do that is to give them free access to large areas in order to find enough food.

Thanks Andy for “pushing” this idea, it has given me a few new ideas about managing my hedgerows. I have managed thick field borders for years for edge habitat for wildlife, but recently we have been thinking about how to use those areas with an eye toward our other needs.

I am a strong proponent of cultivating areas where wildlife can take precedence over livestock, so I think it will take a long time to develop this type of feedstocks for pigs, but I have been raising hedgerows with sugar maples for decades, so it shouldn’t be too hard to think about a new strategy with other species.

Besides, I really don’t think I will ever have more than a handful of pigs on staff at any time so their impact should be reasonably easy to manage.

[Robert MoonShadow]

“…more than a handful of pigs ‘on staff’…”
Made me laugh, but an excellent way to view them!
I think the greenhouse on top idea is fascinating…do you think it’ll self-generate a good portion of the heat needed?

[Carl Russell]

Robert MoonShadow;27565 wrote:

“…more than a handful of pigs ‘on staff’…”
Made me laugh, but an excellent way to view them!
I think the greenhouse on top idea is fascinating…do you think it’ll self-generate a good portion of the heat needed?

Yes, I meant to mention “warm moisture laden, nitrogen and CO2 rich air”.

Carl

[near horse]

@Carl Russell 27570 wrote:

Yes, I meant to mention “warm moisture laden, nitrogen and CO2 rich air”.

Carl

Better for plants – not so good for animals. It seems like there’s a fine line between “capturing” as much of the animal endproducts as possible and creating a less hospitable environment for your pigs – we used to call tight barns with the above conditions a “pneumonia chamber”. I do like the concept and will be interested to see how it works.

[Carl Russell]

near horse;27573 wrote:

Better for plants – not so good for animals. It seems like there’s a fine line between “capturing” as much of the animal end products as possible and creating a less hospitable environment for your pigs – we used to call tight barns with the above conditions a “pneumonia chamber”. I do like the concept and will be interested to see how it works.

Not a barn….. Animals will be housed in an adjacent structure, and the composting chambers, where they will be working, will also be ventilated with adequate oxygen needed for the composting anyway…. The greenhouse will be above in an attempt to capture the overflow without compromising the living conditions for the animals. Probably not a perfect system:rolleyes:, but an attempt. I’ve thought about using ducts to move the air around.

Carl

[Robert MoonShadow]

I want to request that if/when you do this, you share it all here with us…this sounds to be a promising idea, if it works.

[Carl Russell]

Here are some pics of our pigs. Just to see how the photo upload works….

[Author]

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