Alarming Law proposed!!!- Includes discussion of operating farms under gov. reg.

[Robert MoonShadow]

Erika ~ I agree 100% with you; we can’t just ignore the problems. However, I also don’t think that I’m going to spend a whole lot of time out of my day worrying about it – I’ve got to much to do with 22 goats, 15 rabbits, a donkey, an acre to plant in produce, 37 miles of wilderness trail scheduled o be built this year (so far)… well, you get the idea. I’m going to do what I need to, regardless. For instance: I just talked to the water resource people here about water rights on a piece of property I’m looking at that borders on a creek. No one else lives on it (the creek). According to this guy, he told me that the law says that during the 6-month permit process (the license takes anothe 4-5 years), I’m “not allowed” to use that water. I asked him “What about watering my animals & produce, then?” He said “We notify a minimum 3 days ahead of time before coming on your property to measure water flow in the streambed… figure it out.” In other words, I’m willing to notify my congressman, etc. about my views on NAIS, etc., but if “they” pass it anyways, I don’t expect I’ll change the way I do things, regardless. I feel no compunction to obey an unjust law, nor one that’s made solely for the benefit of a select/elite few. But then, I do so knowing the possible consequences & don’t reccomend anyone else to do the same.

[dominiquer60]

I don’t plan on letting these laws effect my life until I am cornered. However I am going to let them effect my pen so that the government knows that we are not all ignorant sheep.

I see several areas where I may be cornered. I run the 3rd largest county fair poultry show in NYS, every summer I have to deal with the state vet, they want to see healthy banded birds(bands indicate they are test free of salmonella pullorum) in a clean barn, I have no problems with this. If the ID thing gets out of hand, I refuse to be a participant in enforcing such things and my fair will loose any of my interest with it and I will find another place to educate folks about the joys of poultry husbandry.

The other area where laws could have a serious impact is my future lively hood of vegetable sales, you can relate Robert. Customers feel safe with grocery store triple sterilized salad mixes, I will sell salad mixes, mine are not sterile and I let the customer know that it is their responsibility to make them sterile if they that is what they want. One of my concerns with heighten food safety is the potential for new regulations that could include any farmers but especially small farmers that direct market. I can picture, but certainly don’t wish for, regulations that require expensive greens washing machines, licenses and inspections taking all responsibility and choice away from direct market customers. So I keep an eye out for it the same way I would be watchful or pro active about a predators potential threat to my flock, I don’t think about it all the time, just always keep it in the back of my mind that the possibility exists.

I rarely loose sleep over these type of things, but I like to keep watch of what is going on in the legislatures and let my freedom of speech be heard.

In the mean time Bret I work 3 months in the south Florida winter horse industry, it is a good way to save money fast. Of course it doesn’t help that we are loosing rich customers to their own demise of embezzling scandals. I do know of 3 instances where friends were stopped and in addition to the reason for being stopped were asked for their coggins, all cases were over 50 miles from Saratoga. It was just an example of how the noose is tightening and not a suggestion to comply with unjust regulations. The dead horse thing seems possibly outdated considering all the water shed restrictions these days that don’t want large animals being buried at all.

Robert, I crave for the responsibilities that you have on your plate, I will have a go of it myself someday. For now I have my temporary job here in FL and no one close by to relate to. I do have a group of good folks with similar yet unique ideas that I communicate with online and for this collection of differing sanity I am thankful.

Carl, I enjoy your perspective on life, its often something that I strive for myself. However I currently feel like my dog Miles, I am just running circles waiting for a worthy task to keep me occupied. I shouldn’t bark at every mouse jumping in the leaves, but until I get settled into a worthwhile situation, I feel that writing letters and sharing information about the potential changes that could happen in the future is as worthy as it gets at the moment. It is more like barking at the coyotes, they haven’t killed the chickens yet, but I want to let them know that I am here to protect the chickens if they come after them. I can wish I was home restoring my walking plow and planning a seeding schedule, but until I get there, I’ll do what I can from afar.

Erika

[OldKat]

@Bret4207 7002 wrote:

Erika, I think you’ll be hard pressed to find an average cop on the road who knows anything at all about Coggins or any of the Ag + Markets laws. Maybe around Saratoga or something, but I know in 20+ years I was never told anything about Coggins tests or anything like that. The only thing generally covered in Ag + Market laws was disposal of dead livestock. “A dead horse must be buried at least 3 feet deep within 72 hours”. Learned that 22 years ago at the State Police Academy and it still boggles my mind! What do you do in winter?

Bret,

We have the same law in Texas that Erika is talking about in NY, though I don’t think the plastic photo credit card is an option here. The way it is enforced is by the Texas Animal Health Commission, who has police powers in issues regarding animal health. I have never heard of them coming onto anyone’s property to confirm negative Coggins status, but out on the road is a horse of a different color (BAD PUN, I KNOW … SHOOT ME!)

Say you pull into a sale barn to drop off some calves and happen to have horse in your trailer; they (TAHC) will require Coggins papers before you can even go through the check in. Not sure what they can do, because the only time I was ever stopped was pulling into a county fairground with some saddle horses for a youth play day. They would not let us enter until we got our papers in hand. Fortunately it was just the adjoining county and my wife brought the papers and met us on the highway.

I have heard of several other people that were actually detained, or at least the horses were, until the papers were available for inspection. I have never heard of anyone being stopped on the road for a random check, but technically it could happen. Not sure what the fines are for hauling horses that do not have a negative Coggins test.

Generally the TAHC guys are good people, just doing their job and I want to see Coggins controlled so in this case I don’t see this as intrusive government.

[dominiquer60]

You are right Bret, one was a trooper he stopped my best friend towing with only a Dodge Dakota in the middle of a 3 mile climb because of the wrong color trailer inspection sticker. The other two were stopped for similar reasons by locals. All three officials asked to see them, I am sure that the paper work could have been for the entirely wrong animals and it would not have mattered, they just wanted to see them. I know generally that the last thing that a trooper wants to do is get involved with animals on the side of the road, I wouldn’t want that responsibility, but he did ask.

Old Kat I can relate, our fairgrounds has a line of vehicles waiting to enter on show days, everyone has to have UTD rabies and coggins tests before they can enter. I am glad that these diseases are no longer a big problem, I don’t like the fact that they can be a means to force us into a unnecessary government program like animal ID. I won’t exhibit livestock any more because of it, fortunately they still let us bring our vegetables without enrolling into a program. I always look forward to baffling the judges with some outrageous heirloom variety, and they look forward to seeing them.

[Robert MoonShadow]

Erika ~ Share my responsibilities?!? Um… no way! {You thought I’d say okay, especially the manure part, didn’t ya?}… I’m loving almost every minute of my life!! I got to meet Geoff today – really cool guy, lots of good talk – and laughed so hard at the neighbor… she asked me what I’d named my eleveny baby goats = “Name them, hell lady, I can’t even get them to hold still long enough to count them!!” –> and she tried & laughed so hard she had tears in her eyes. Now I’m going to have to PM you; I’m wanting to talk poultry & you opened up & let me know you’ve got expertise… By the way; the salmonella, etc. in the salad greens is most often introduced through the water they irrigate and/or wash it with… and a good healthy compost has been shown to contain organisms that feed on those pathogens…
…and who are you calling “sane” on here, anyways? Better not be me! :p

[Carl Russell]

When we are worried about whether what we want to do is illegal, we are distracted from the life that makes us feel like we are alive, the life that makes us feel like we matter, the life that we will fight to protect.

By the time we believe that THEY actually can take away our rights, then they already have!

Carl

[Y 4 Ranch]

Good Morning to all: I can see both sides here, but the problem that still lingers is how this legislation is interpreted by enforcement officials. There have been a lot of laws with good intent, some knee jerk, that have unintended consequences or enforcement had another point of view. Jen’s comments about the myths and facts is accurate, however, this proposed legislation can still have appendixes placed on the back or worded in such a fashion that is not so clear that enforcement will difficulty defining the actual violation.
I heard a reference of being south of Mason- Dixon Line, well, I’m a tad bit further north but I’ll damned sure fight for the same freedoms as you. Count me in! My suggestions now would be to contact your legislators and make certain they understand your point of view. Enough people contact them and they get the drift ( side joke for my area, 10″ of snow this past week).
Mike

[Rod]

One problem that occurs when Congress writes a law is the the agency that is responsible to administer the law then writes regulations that bring the practical effect into being. These regulations do not have the same scrutiny as the enabling legislation has nor do the authors have the same level of accountability as the lawmakers experience. And by the regulations sometimes the intent or meaning of the laws is altered. Not only does that happen but later the regulations are often revised and sometime become more onerous or far reaching. Isn’t that what is going on with NAIS and the Department of Ag? It happens at the EPA and also in any agency that writes their own regulations and these regulations can and often do take on a life of their own. I have witnessed this happen in the wetland regulation field. I worked on one project which involved a household well which was 1300 feet away from a designated wetland area. The project was required to obtain a wetland permit for the well tailing (the soil and rock fragments which come up out of the drill hole and form a small mound around the hole). In addition we just learned from the news that the various Presidents up to and now including Obama have been adding their bias to the signed bills as they are sent down to the various departments for implementation. Seem like the President can tell his Departments what the legislation really means and how to implement it.
Maybe the simple representative Government model we learned about in grade school and like to think we have has morphed into a monster and is not any longer as pure as we would like to believe?

[Crabapple Farm]

I just was actually reading the proposed House bill that establishes the Food Safety Agency, and while it is true that it doesn’t mention NAIS, what it does say is that the new Agency is required to implement a system of “Traceability” of all food… Which sure sounds like animal tracking to me.

It doesn’t otherwise effect producers much, though seems like it might kill off a few more small slaughterhouses with red tape.

Carl – I applaud your independence. However, I make my primary living selling food, and to do that I need to let more than just close aquaintences know that I am doing what I am doing. I’ve got ads out in the world saying what I do. As a result of those internet listings, I’ve had a nice friendly USDA fellow stop by unannounced once already, playing “good cop.” We are well-versed in the applicable laws, so while I gave him an earful about how I thought they were wrong, all he found to tell me was that I should install security cameras in the barn so that bioterrorists won’t be able to break in and tamper with the meat in our chest freezer and make someone sick – not a requirement, just a suggestion. (I kid you not – apparently this is what the USDA worries about)
-Tevis

[Carl Russell]

Tevis, and others, I am not suggesting that anybody give up their chosen work, nor to break the law, nor to start some civil disobedience.

My points are only intended to point out that governments are temporary, but community is perpetual. When government regulation begins to limit our rights, then it makes little sense to me, to expect that the authority that has created the problem, will contribute meaningfully to the solution.

Many people refer to the constitution as such an important document, but all it does is facilitate the formation of a government that was offered as alternative to British rule. The current experiment in government was an alternative to anarchy that would have driven us back into the waiting arms of the tyrant.

The more important document in my mind is the declaration of independence, because it clearly illuminates that not only do we have rights that supersede those provided by government, but we also have responsibility to determine at what point we need to resist over-reaching authority.

I am not suggesting a revolution, just that we realize that we have solutions that lay outside of government, and that if we want to try to follow the laws and regulations that’s ok, but that we also work on invigorating those aspects of community that will give us the support we need, both in living common sense lives, and in the case that the current system crumbles.

(If an USDA agent suggested video surveillance cameras in our farm store room, I’d just cite the recent example of the day-time burglar who was reeking havoc around central Vermont, only to be stymied by the fierce response by the watchful neighbors in our community. Within days enough people had compared notes that they led to cops right to him.)

Carl

[OldKat]

@Carl Russell 7177 wrote:

Tevis, and others, I am not suggesting that anybody give up their chosen work, nor to break the law, nor to start some civil disobedience.

My points are only intended to point out that governments are temporary, but community is perpetual. When government regulation begins to limit our rights, then it makes little sense to me, to expect that the authority that has created the problem, will contribute meaningfully to the solution.

Many people refer to the constitution as such an important document, but all it does is facilitate the formation of a government that was offered as alternative to British rule. The current experiment in government was an alternative to anarchy that would have driven us back into the waiting arms of the tyrant.

The more important document in my mind is the declaration of independence, because it clearly illuminates that not only do we have rights that supersede those provided by government, but we also have responsibility to determine at what point we need to resist over-reaching authority.

I am not suggesting a revolution, just that we realize that we have solutions that lay outside of government, and that if we want to try to follow the laws and regulations that’s ok, but that we also work on invigorating those aspects of community that will give us the support we need, both in living common sense lives, and in the case that the current system crumbles.

(If an USDA agent suggested video surveillance cameras in our farm store room, I’d just cite the recent example of the day-time burglar who was reeking havoc around central Vermont, only to be stymied by the fierce response by the watchful neighbors in our community. Within days enough people had compared notes that they led to cops right to him.)

Carl

Catching up on some old threads tonight and came back to this. Like Carl, I’m not advocating anything here; just recalling a story a businessman once told me.

The summer between my junior and senior years in college I had an internship with a feed company. One of the things I did was a dealer survey to determine what services were being offered and what equipment was needed to offer those services. One guy told me he had on site grain storage and had “experienced” several visits from OSHA, which was a greatly feared federal agency in that day (don’t hear many horror stories from them anymore though). Anyway, he said one OSHA guy came by and told him his ladder on the side of his grain bin was unsafe because it had no cage around it & that he would have to add one. He did so only to be told by the next inspector that it was unsafe, because someone could slip on the ladder and become entangled in the cage. His order? Remove the cage. This was done, only to be reinstalled at the order of the next inspector.

The final straw was when an OSHA inspector came by and said that ANY permanent ladder on the bin was unsafe and should be removed. His solution instead? Get an aluminum ladder that could be stored away from the bin and leaned against it when needed! To which the dealer claimed that he very slowly and deliberately went into his office, got three double-0 shotgun shells, calmly loaded them in his Remington 870 pump shotgun (in plain sight of the OSHA guy) and then told him that he had two ways he could leave the premises; “immediately or dead”. To which he added; “and DON’T COME BACK”. He claimed that it had been about 4 years and he had not seen another OSHA inspector.

Have no way of telling if that was a true story, but he seemed fairly sincere in his telling of it. The 870 was leaning in the corner behind his desk, so I didn’t question it too much!

I don’t know; ideally it shouldn’t have to come to that. Story stuck with me though.

[near horse]

Hi –

I heard this story last week at the Plow days I attended and while it may be nothing more than a story, it still is a good laugh about regulations and paperwork on your horses.

Soooo, Down in Walla Walla WA there’s a museum w/ horse drawn equipment in it and THE major piece is a horsedrawn (or mule) grounddriven combine that required somewhere around 25 head to pull. You may have seen old photos of this type of hitch with the teamster perched on what looks like a ladder extending forward out over the hitch. Anyway, Walla Walla has a full re-creation of the thing complete w/ 25 or 26 lifesize plastic or fiberglass horses (or mules I can’t remember). It appears that when they were hauling the plastic horses to Walla Walla they had to cross a scale and the official asked for paperwork on the animals. The driver cracked up because 1) they had THE LIGHTEST 25 animals in history (could be grounds for abuse) 2) some of the horse models were stacked in like cord wood – with stiff legs sticking up – 😮

Anyway, hope to lighten up the regulatory mood.

[Gabe Ayers]

Maybe this last post by Geoff would be a candidate for retitling to “Funny Stories” because it is really a funny story. Hard to imagine that government folks – even the ones at a weigh station are that stupid….but funnier things have happened than officials being stupid….

It would be an additional task for someone to follow these threads and reassign or title stories appropriately. I can’t imagine Carl having that extra time.

Thanks for sharing that story.

[Gabe Ayers]

Diary from someone who has actually read the 400 page report.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/5/10/729694/-USDAs-NAIS-All-Cost-No-Benefit-Report

[Author]

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