any thing new in the markets out there

[TaylorJohnson]

Hey any of you have any thing new going on in the markets out there? Mine are about the same here. Taylor Johnson

[Scott G]

Same story, different day. I am getting hammered by firewood orders, however, and that is a good thing. Firewood has dominated my life for the last couple of weeks.

Just waiting for the Ibuprofen to kick in, then back to it….

[ArtieT]

Firewood here too! Chunking up some decent sawlogs because what the mill would pay after trucking is less than what I can get for firewood. I do know that the sawmill I worked for (until I was laid off last winter) has made a slight increase in their price sheet, still not enough to ship logs though!

[simon lenihan]

Hanging on by the skin of our teeth, had to leave one of the boys go due to the lack of work. I found it very upsetting at the time and still do, this lad of mine came to the wood during his school holidays when he was 7 years of age and was working a pair of stallions when he was 16. I find it upsetting in a time when there is so much talk about the enviroment, low carbon footprint, preserving rural skills that the forestry organizations turn a blind eye to timber harvesting with horses. I fret at being out of work but can not comprehend losing our way of life.
simon lenihan

[Gabe Ayers]

Well, what we are doing is not new to us but may be new to others.

Our work is about selling green certified forest products to customers that are defining the value of their materials as greater because they are produced by certain methods of harvesting. This special market includes architects writing special provisions for certain green certified forest products because they have higher points ratings in the LEEDS green building certification system.

For instance, the higher points are given for the material being sourced from as close to the end use as possible. There are also extra points available to “innovative certification systems”, this means something other than the industry version – Sustainable Forestry Initiative – (SFI) or the big green version of the Forest Stewardship Council (FSC) system. In our case, the community certified DRAFTWOOD system is gaining those innovative certification system points. This is great when we have clients coming to us asking for certain species from our program – with availability being the first concern, quality second and price being next and seldom negotiated, but paid as requested.

The particular species we are harvesting as part of our whole forest approach that we commonly call “Restorative Forestry” – is Black Locust for exterior applications as decking and as a replacement or viable option/alternative for rain forest species with similar characteristics. In our case the black locust is replacing Ipe and bringing the exact same prices or maybe a tiny bit less.

What that really means is that we process this material on site with a local band sawmill, plane it in a local wood working shop and sell it wet or air dried, as it is appropriate to install in an exterior application without being kiln dried. This means we get an order for a certain number of board feet or square feet, price the material accordingly and require 50% deposit to take the order. We don’t take orders for material we don’t have access to in our forested sites available to our management methods and harvesting agreements.

We just happen to be fortunate to have been doing this long enough that we have established a considerable inventory of acreage owned by private individuals that are available for our active management whenever a product we need is ordered and happens to be in their forest.

It works out best for all of us, because we can pay more for the stumpage when we work this way and most are not in a hurry to have their forests harvested in the first place. They have bought into our approach of restorative forestry and will wait for the management to reward them the most and accomplish their objectives of taking the best care of their forest, particularly from an aesthetic view.

So that is what we are doing as a primary income producer, but we also harvest firewood for long length sales locally, we sell some saw logs to conventional markets, for species we have no specific markets for at the moment and no money to invest into value adding and storing while waiting for a market to come along. Yep we still sell saw logs and firewood. We don’t haul any paper wood or pulpwood.

This situation may not last, then again it may continue to grow – but it is what we are doing mostly now and what we are working to expand for all the species we have available in the native Appalachian forest type.

This model is something that could be done anywhere and in fact that would be the greatest compliment and accomplishment of our (HHFF) mission we could imagine. It is not a hard system to emulate and one naturally adaptable to your community, forest type and markets. Third party certification is just a matter of someone other than the owner saying the principles are being practicesd and have principles that are clear, understandable and undeniably more sustainable than conventional approaches.

All of this information is on our web site through links to http://www.draftwood.com

Simon I am so saddened by your situation. I wish we had you in this area, we have plenty of good work in some of the best forest in the world. The woods here are very diverse not all of it is a mountainside. We extend an invitation to your son to come visit us here and see what he thinks. I have a pair he can work I’m sure. I’d bet we can get him a 90 day tourist visa or maybe a green card if he wanted to work a while.

I also understand your honest disgust over the conflict of every environmentalist alive whining about people not being green enough or this carbon footprint of that carbon spewing smokestack or any of the obvious reasons we are contributing to our own polluted world. Meanwhile they are not recognizing that right before their eyes there are wonderful solutions to many of the concerns they link to everything bad in the natural world and they do very little or nothing to support it.

In fact we have that exact scenario happening in our own county/community. There is a new group started called Sustain (fill in the blank) and they are scrambling to have every author of any environmental book come and save them while they won’t even invite an organization recognized around the world, but from their own back yard, to make a presentation to their general membership. Then they wonder why we won’t rush to have a booth at their Eco Fair when they hold it on the same day as one of the longest running Folklife Festivals in the country – which we have attended for over thirty years and alerted them to the conflict when they announced their date.

It is October the 24th – the big 350.org day. Funny that we haven’t seen much about all that on these pages…and for good reason, they ignore us, why would be pay any attention to them…which is not how I want it to work but how it is at the moment. Divide and conquer shouldn’t work among intelligent people….but it still does for the most part.

Anyway that is a report from what we are doing here in central Appalachia and HHFF, let us know what you think.

Salute,

[Gabe Ayers]

I am not whining Joel Harmon, we can sell every piece of this material we can harvest – for good money.

If you had read closely you would notice that this material is used in exterior applications, it doesn’t need to be kiln dried, which makes it much easier for a small producer to produce without expensive infrastructure. It is graded for soundness, but the sourcing method has value, which seems to be the point missed by your comments.

This post was in response to the question of what anybody was doing about new markets. That someone hasn’t heard of something before doesn’t make it open for mean spirited comments.

Why you would attempt to reduce this sharing with such a negative comment is worth questioning? There is no comparison in what we, (as a group) are doing to the implications of your comments.

The disconnect between the green community and real life environmentally sensitive work in the forest is a glaring gap that some of us doing this work today see.

Your sour, bitter response is your burden to bear man. We are happy and rewarded by what we do and we will keep doing it and sharing – despite such attacks by (thankfully) a limited few disgruntled folks on the internet.

So what are your positive alternatives for animal powered forestry people Joel? Doing nothing different keeps us competing with mechanized harvesting, where is that going to get animal powered practitioners?

If they want to work up firewood and create wealth with their efforts what’s wrong with that?

All of us aren’t ready to retire yet and set back and throw stones at anyone doing something we haven’t heard of before.

I would suggest reading closer and if you don’t have something positive to add, then don’t say anything at all.

Tired of cheap shots…..Sincerely,

[Joshua Kingsley]

Jason,
I was wondering what other types of wood you are having sucess with in the DraftWood market? I had a mill that was able to custom saw some timber for me when I was cutting about 2 years ago before I got hurt real bad. I had some customers that wanted local cedar and locust for some exterior projects. I also was able to sell some hemlock and pine along with select hardwoods to a local cabinet maker and carpenter. What would you suggest to gain a large amount of acreage that would be able to be harvested in a sustainable manner for a beginning practitioner. One of the problems I encountered was resistance to having a team in the woods on some of the projects I was taking on. One land owner even requested that I bring in some machines as I was leaving the woods too nice!!

Best of luck to all out there in the woods and I wish I was back out there with you all.
Josh

[Bumpus]

.
It is kind of odd that some feel that what works best for them is best for all or what does not work for them won’t work for others either.

I know people who take junk wood and cut wood wedges for coal mines and employ 4 and 5 people at a time, and make good money for them all to share.
While big long standing timber companies and huge and small saw mills who have been in business for years and years have shut down production, closed and give it up.

There are many different markets for any wood products, and many different ways of marketing them.

But they will not work in every area of the country.

Anything new to the public is hard to sell, and Jason Rutledge is one person who knows from many years experience how that comes about.

I have talked to him in person more than once, and even been in his house and on his farm, and on a couple of his job sites.

I told him over 15+ year ago that the road he was taking would slow down for him with his working in the woods manually, and he would spend more and more time teaching and developing the system he has grown more and more in passion to love and his life style.

I have watched this progression over the years from the side lines.

Even though I was never completely sold on this way he has adopted, I still wanted to log with horses but in a different way.

Jason is still filling a system that is in much need for the logging and timber industry.

He has taught me much, through his videos, one on one personal talks, YouTube, News Articles and Emails, and he has helped many, many people along the way ! ! !

I remember one of his long standing apprentices and friend years ago wore a tee shirt while logging on Jasons job that said something like.

No Crybabies Working Here.

That’s My Opinion
And I’M Sticking To It ! ! !
.

[lancek]

Jole after reading the thread throughly I didnt see where you said anything about value added! And as far as gradeing that system is so out of date it should be abolished! That is why we have the problems in the woods today of finding good timber they have high graded everything so bad that the realy high quality timber is all but gone except on land held by goverment or private frims that would not allow this type of loging!Jason is absulutly right in the fact that if we dont start makeing more inroads into marketing all the timber in the woods, we will all be out of buisness. For instance I just made a deal to take large bur oak logs that I find are prevelant out here in Mo, and making them into timbers that bring veenerr prices wich translates into more money for me and more money for my customers we are also marketing osge orange and black and yellow locast for fence and decking material Lancek

[Jim Ostergard]

First off, Simon, really sorry to hear things are so slow and difficult. I really hope your son can take up Jason’s offer and come over. If I had enough work ahead I would make the same offer.
Not much new here, been a slow fall which has been ok as I’m way behind in getting stuff ready for winter. Rusty is really showing his age and I looked at a younger horse today who is a good prospect and not expensive. Will rotate them on jobs until Rusty lets me know he wants to stay home.
Jason’s comments are right on in a number of respects that I relate to. I have a hard time with the greens (even though I sit on some boards and committees therein) and it seems that when harvesting comes into the discussion is almost always a distant afterthought to harvest the way many of us feel it can be done. I have not been away from the machine operations long enough to really have any large list of landowners I can count on for work, although I sense it is growing. The best jobs of the last few years have all been when we have brought a mill in and made the most of the harvest for a very local use.
I wish I had a good hardwood lot right now. Even at the age of 68 I’ll fell, twitch, fit and load firewood. Not my favorite sort of work but you got to do what you got to do to feed us all. Shoot 20 years ago ripping and gutting a thousand pounds of codfish hitting the deck in the middle of winter wasn’t much fun either.
And lastly, Joel, perhaps your comments were not meant to offend but I found them a bit hard to read and to understand where you were coming from. Hope all is well with you and all the others who make up this community.
Jimbojim

[Scott G]

Einstein’s definition of insanity: Doing the same thing the same way time after time and expecting different results…

In the current market, trying to haul enough volume to the landing in the traditional fashion & paying stumpage in line with ground based mechanical shows is the short route down the cliff.

Thinking outside of the box and exchanging ideas with one another about what works and what doesn’t as well as being willing to try something different is what will enable horse loggers to not only survive but thrive.

Being vertically integrated at every step of the process from felling to a final value-added finished product is critical. Not only do you have the potential to maximize every drop of profit out of that material, you keep your operation diversified enough so that when one sector is having issues the other processes are there to support it. Every very successful outfit I know of, machine or horse operation, is vertically integrated and every one of those I know are still weathering the current economic downturn and in some cases, thriving. Stump to finished product is the answer, or at least the mindset to get there. Service work for quality TSI on properties where esthetics are paramount is another example of value-added. This is and has been the predominant business model I have used, both with mechanical & horse operations.

Horse logging is a niche, and as such should be marketed as one. I am not one of those who think animal power is the only answer. As a land manager, when I am putting out contracts my goal is to use the most appropriate harvesting system for the project, from horse to helicopter. In our fragmented, small acreage, or sensitive sites here in the central Rockies horses are the ideal harvesting system when an individual tree or group selection silvicultural prescription is being implemented. It also makes economic sense on these small parcels due to low overhead and low move in costs. In a patchcut in lpp which by definition is naturally an even-aged stand and requires even-age management, a well run mechanical CTL operation is very appropriate. Mix & match with systems also works well; i.e., forwarders with horses being used as pre-bunchers. This method truly gives you the best of both worlds, something the Scandinavians have been dialed into for a long time.

Practicing forestry in southern Appalachia is completely different than practicing forestry in the Rocky Mountains and as such, requires different silvicutural, operational, and thought processes.

That said, the common ground is to practice management in the most environmentally sound, silviculturally appropriate, low-impact, highest utilization, operationally efficient, and cost effective manner possible. There is and has been a place for draft power in forestry world wide. It is just making the most of what you get and filling the niches where it truly is the best harvesting system option available, not exclusive of other options.

As far as firewood, the wood I use is a byproduct of other operations. The harvesting of the firewood is offset by the revenue generated from service work or mill receipts. I very seldom go to the woods just looking for firewood, it justs accumulates throughout the year. If the owner payed for the harvesting, I will buy the firewood back at the landing for a minimal rate. In essence, because it’s unprocessed value at the landing is so low, I pay very little for it. This is key in making money. The value-added component comes into play when I buck, split, and deliver it. I get $185/cord delivered & dumped. I can process and deliver 2 cords a day. At $370 minus maybe a small bit if I bought wood back from the landowner I still easily make well over $300 for an 8-10 hour day. Not at the top end for a day’s work but not bad for low cost work at my wood yard with material that I would have anyway.

This goes back to what I have said several times on this forum; know your costs. If you know your costs you can avoid pitfalls and recognize opportunities.

Know your markets/niche, develop those markets, then market the hell out of your operation.

[Scott G]

Oh, and as far as grading & kiln drying. We have gotten to the point here where as long as an engineer is willing to sign off on it the wood can be used as structural. It does not have to be kiln dried. Air drying works just fine here with our very low RH. As a matter of fact the issue is usually trying to slow down the drying process so you get minimal dimensional degrade and checking/cracking, twisting, and warping.

As a woodworker I much prefer to use air dried material vs kiln dried. Too many mills try to hurry the process and the wood becomes case hardened. I can sink a chisel into a piece of wood and know immediatley if it went through a kiln or was air dried.

Most certification systems as far as I’m concerned have minimal merit. The reason being the third party audit standards and lack of monitoring for harvesting operations. Its a good start, however, and you have to start somewhere…

[lancek]

Scotts absulotly right if your cost are in line and you know them than profitts will increase! And as far as timber being graded on the chain that is a missconseption froced on us by the big mills and goverment any lumber certified by an architucual enginer is exceptable in the cunstruction of a home !

[TaylorJohnson]

Mr. Simon,
This is know good I hate to hear this for you. I hope things turn around so you can keep doing what you do. You have some fine looking horses and I can tell you love your trade so hang in there my friend . I think,,, well I know there are a lot of loggers in the same boat as you right now even over here. I know guys that have been logging there hole lives and are now getting out and looking for town jobs. It is a pity for sure. Taylor Johnson

[Scott G]

Simon,
I wanted to make sure I didn’t diss your comment & plight. It is hard letting crew go. It about ripped my heart out when I had to let employees go that had given their all to me and I had drained any/all options of being able to keep them on. Even though they weren’t family they sure felt like it.

So are there any amenity woodlands where you could do some service work to get by on? Is there any local market for some of the posts/poles you are cutting that you could sell direct and relalize a better margin?

Unfortunately, the history of the timber industry, at least over here, is one of boom & bust cycles. That goes back to my comment of the ones who seem to weather those downturns the best are the ones who are vertically integrated and diversified. We need many more smaller mills and less large corporate ones.

Hunker down and times will change. That is one benefit we have over conventional operations, low overhead and fixed costs. It is a lot easier to hunker down when you don’t have high dollar monthly invoices from Caterpillar Financial, John Deere Credit, etc.. Been there, done that, and it almost killed me. No desire to go back to that point in time…

Hang in there, man!

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