Back Straps And Belly Bands Are Not For Pulling Or Pushing.

[grey]

Here is another one.

Look at the team in front. See how high their heel chains are? Their point of hitch is well above their hocks! Look at how the angle of the traces changes at the belly band.

[img]http://www.draftanimalpower.com/photoplog/images/42/1_DSC01784.JPG[/img]

Also, look at the little horse closest to the camera. The rope and pulley evener system they are using makes the point of hitch quite high for the lead team. That little Hafflinger’s harness is adjusted properly to make sure that her traces and hames stay at a 90-degree angle to each other, and also the traces are 90 degrees to her shoulder. The market strap must be long enough and the belly band snug enough to maintain that angle. After or behind the belly band, the traces have a different angle.

When you are going to use your horse in such a way as to have a high point of hitch like this, make sure you have a nice wide belly band. You can see how a narrow one would cut in and cause discomfort in a situation like this.

[jen judkins]

Bumpus, I’m not exactly sure what the point of this thread is, but there are many differences between types of harnesses. The harnesses these horses are using would not be suitable for cart work or farming…at least not where I live (very hilly). They are pulling (or pushing to be more exact) the full load using the collar, so the full weight is born on the neck and shoulders. With a D-ring harness, that load would be distributed to the back and I bet they would have an easier time with the load. I think that is what some are referring to in regard to traction. In the case of the D-ring harness, its important that the front hame strap meets the hames at a 90 degree angle, which will most likely determine how tight your back strap is. I agree you wouldn’t want that too tight, but these horse’s belly straps are so loose, they are likely to get a foot through and have a wreck….and a shame that would be as they are lovely.

There’s an awful lot of poor horsemanship shown in this video and alot of risk taking, I’m not sure that its of much value here. JMHO.

[jen judkins]

@grey 12093 wrote:

Well, I stumbled across one image that shows the belly band in action.

Grey, I thought it cool that your photo was of Les barden (I believe that’s him). I listened to his talk on the proper fitting of a D-ring harness at the field days. His presentation was titled, ‘Comfort, Safety and Dignity’. I believe he would give us all an earful concerning this thread, lol!:D

[grey]

That photo is a very good one for demonstrating a properly-fitted and properly-adjusted harness. The well-groomed gray horses make an excellent canvas for the harness. I have absolutely no complaints about the adjustment of the harness in that photo, which is rare. It is so much easier to find a photo of an incorrectly-adjusted harness.

When you have one horse or one team and have a low point of hitch and are dragging dead weight on the ground, the adjustment of your harness is not very critical. As long as your collar fits, nothing is sagging down where it can get a hoof caught, and the load isn’t hitched so close that it hits the horse in the heels when he walks, everything else is largely irrelevant.

When you start hitching multiple teams, or hitch to something with wheels or start going over varied terrain or raise your point of hitch, harness fit and adjustment becomes more and more important. The length of time you have the horse really working in harness makes a difference as well. If you’re just going up and pulling out a little log or two, or making a few passes across the field with the harrow, or going out for an hour-long wagon ride down the road, a maladjusted harness likely won’t bother the horse. There might be some safety issues if the horse is pulling a vehicle and the harness isn’t adjusted correctly.

Increase the length of time in harness or the weight that the horse is pulling and an ill-fitting harness will sore a shoulder.

[Carl Russell]

grey;12145 wrote:

….. If you’re just going up and pulling out a little log or two, or making a few passes across the field with the harrow, or going out for an hour-long wagon ride down the road, a maladjusted harness likely won’t bother the horse. ……

I might just add that the adjustments on harnesses are there so that the harness can be adjusted correctly. It really makes no difference the level of exertion expected from the horses, the harnesses should be adjusted correctly. Belly bands, side straps, and britchen should all be snug. Britchen should be up, and the front trace should be held in its place. Otherwise no need for a harness.

Carl

[grey]

That’s very true. I guess the only reason I put that in there is because I sometimes see/hear people say that they use their harness this way or that way and never had any problems. However, the reality is that most people don’t actually use their horses, so they never see any ill effects from their badly-adjusted harness. Like the show horses with their way-too-big Scotch collars… a few turns around the ring isn’t going to sore a shoulder. But plow half a day with such a sloppy collar and you’ll do damage to your horse.

[CharlyBonifaz]

@ grey

Not sure I understand… you move your tugs up and down on the hames according to the height of your hitch point?

yes,exactly

seems like we’re really into a different system; if I understand yours, the bellyband and backpad are used to also hold the harness in place?

The tug should always be centered over the “draft” of the horse’s shoulder. There is one spot on the horse’s shoulder that is above the point of the shoulder (the bone) where the muscle is broad and flat. The widest part of the collar should ride there, and the tugs should attach to the hames there also.

That is exactly where they should be attached
Over here, horse logging is sometimes done with only the harness and chains, may be a wider leatherbelt just thrown over the back, somewhat holding the tugs in line, but that’s it;

When you have one horse or one team and have a low point of hitch and are dragging dead weight on the ground, the adjustment of your harness is not very critical.

that’s may be the case in logging, as above
but when you hitch anything like a cart you come up behind and still the tugs are supposed to run without an angle….
the bellyband over here is definitely to weak to hold much of the tugs; most likely it would also break, when a foot is caught (nevertheless mine never hangs loose 😉 )
so I think it’s 2 different systems applied….
elke

[grey]

We, too, have hames that allow for hooking the traces at different heights. Here is one example: http://www.smuckersharness.com/harnesses/pg51B.jpg (the wood hames on the left)

However, we would not choose a different adjustment based on the height of hitch. Those adjustments are to make one pair of hames fit one animal or another, just like the three slots in the top of the hame. Once you have found the proper setting for that animal, you would not change the adjustment, regardless of the height of the point of hitch. You do not want the horse pushing against the collar with the traces hitched too high or too low on the shoulder, or having the traces leave the hames too far off 90 degrees. It causes the collar to press unevenly against the horse’s shoulder, or to lift and press against the windpipe.

When dragging things on the ground (logs, walking plow, etc.), the belly band and the back pad are a convenience, only. They are not necessary for keeping the collar in place, once the horse is in draft and actively pushing against the collar.

Take another look at this photo:
[img]http://www.draftanimalpower.com/photoplog/images/42/1_DSC01784.JPG[/img]

The two horses in the center of the lead do not have properly-adjusted belly bands. The angle of draft has not been maintained. The high point of hitch, combined with the improperly-used belly bands, has caused their traces to lift their collars. The collars are pressing into their windpipes. The traces do not leave the collars at a 90-degree angle. The angle of their shoulder tries to press against the collar evenly. This results in either lifting the collar or rocking the top of the collar forward and back, applying uneven and intermittant pressure against the shoulder and creating a sore.

When you use something with a high point of hitch, such as a high-wheeled passenger cart, you like to have the tugs come straight back from the collar, run alongside the shafts, and go directly to the point of hitch? Similar to the effect that you would get by using a breastcollar harness? That is fine as long as it is something light such as a little passenger cart. Relatively little force is exerted.

[img]http://www.draftanimalpower.com/photoplog/images/706/1_DSC00034.JPG[/img]

Although this is a vehicle with shafts, it has been designed with a low point of hitch because the angle of draft between the collar and the point of hitch needs to remain as close to 90 degrees as possible, while still allowing the collar to lie flat against the angle of the shoulder. The angle of draft that is acceptable on a light passenger cart would be unacceptable in this situation. If you had a very wide belly band and/or a D-ring harness, a higher point of hitch could be tolerated, but it would still not be ideal.

[CharlyBonifaz]

how much does the angle of the horses shoulder affect this? can you pick that up with fixing the tugs per bellyband and back pad?

[grey]

Yes, exactly. If the collar fits correctly, it will match the angle of the shoulder when the horse is in “normal” draft… like dragging a log on the ground or a walking plow. The back pad and belly band get adjusted to maintain that ideal angle so that when you have “abnormal” hitch heights, the collar still lies correctly against that horse’s shoulder.

[CharlyBonifaz]

thanks; I’m learning….:)
elke

[Anonymous]

@grey 12145 wrote:

When you have one horse or one team and have a low point of hitch and are dragging dead weight on the ground, the adjustment of your harness is not very critical… or hitch to something with wheels or start going over varied terrain or raise your point of hitch, harness fit and adjustment becomes more and more important. The length of time you have the horse really working in harness makes a difference as well. If you’re just going up and pulling out a little log or two, or making a few passes across the field with the harrow, or going out for an hour-long wagon ride down the road, a maladjusted harness likely won’t bother the horse…

Ahhh – Grey – were you talking to me? I really appreciate your help with collar/hames fit on the other board. See – this is the beauty of these public forums – what you learn when others ask questions. There is always something else to learn from other people. I did not understand why you asked what my usual point of draft was – but after reading your explaination of harness fit here – it makes so much more sense. 🙂 Besides the description of “working” in harness (we more play and cruise – like you described) but have been spending more time working as of late – hence the rubs.

Again… let me express thanks to all who post on here – I am continually learning, even though you don’t hear from me often.:D

[grey]

Keep us updated on your situation with the collar rub. Really interested in what you end up doing and what the solution ends up being. Might be helpful if you post a photo of your whole setup. Sometimes a detail elsewhere might give us a clue as to the underlying issue. Curious about what sort of wagon you are using… the type of wheels, the style and angle of the tongue, how you have adjusted your neck yoke, breast strap and pole strap.

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