bakery wagon

[goodcompanion]

Hello all and apologies for my absence..

Looking for feedback on a new project of mine. Any carriage builders out there?

I am hoping to build a bakery wagon to sell bread and produce out of on the town green from fall onwards. The local selectboard thinks it’s a swell idea and it is really low overhead. The catch is that I need a sweet wagon.

I am thinking of a nice well-painted bakery wagon–I purchased a set of Ivan Collins plans from wild horse books in montana, which, by the way, maintains a great archive of commercial horsedrawn vehicle plans. If you are really curious you can look at a picture of my proposed bakery wagon at:

http://www.wildhorsebooks.com/Plans/Collin’s%20Plans/Milk.jpg

Being a pretty accomplished carpenter the upperworks, or box, seems like a pretty straightforward project. The original sides and roof were made out of thin tongue-and-groove planks but I feel like cheating and using a little plywood. Maybe aluma-coat the roof like they do on trailers. I am thinking of a slick paint job with the bakery name on the side and plenty of text, just like in the old days. When people were moving around at horse speeds there was time to read it all.

My challenge and appeal for advice concerns the chassis, or gear. There are plenty of options for a set of wheels and a frame to perch the box on. The one option not for sale at any price that I can afford is what the plans call for: A true fifth wheel front axle with connection points for shafts with leaf springs over each front wheel, configured fore-and-aft. The back wheels also each have their own fore-and-aft leaf springs. The plans call for a midweight wheel, 2″ wide, 34″ in the front, 44″ rear. Such a gear isn’t available anywhere except perhaps as a custom job and I am not independently wealthy.

So here are my options, with the pro and con for each.

1. Antique farm wagon gear. Pro: available locally and relatively cheap. Would look appropriate–nice, heavy wheels. I could build the box right on it without further modification. Con: Can’t be sprung without rebuilding the gear. Steel tires limit my range and speed on public roads. Farm wagons are also usually configured with a pole and I want shafts to maintain a narrow profile so motorists can pass me easily.

2. A buggy gear. Pro: often have shafts already. Often have rubber tires, thus greater speed and range. Sometimes available locally and relatively cheap. Con: (someone correct me if I’m wrong) buggy springs are not suitable for a high, roofed box–too light and not placed to prevent wobbling from side to side. So I would have to find or build a new suspension.

3. A new pioneer gear. Pro: wood wheels are available and they would kind of look the part. I say kind of because their half-ton gear only has 24″ wheel available and these are far from the 34″ and 44″ the plans call for. But they are available with rubber. Pioneer bolster springs are available for it. Con: narrower wheelbase (51″) than most buggies or wagons (usually more like 64″). Wouldn’t this make a tall box rather unstable, even given the lower overall height (8″ less)? Also expensive, and far away.

4. A workaday haywagon gear or other basic functional gear. Pro: I could get this thing on the road on some type of basic gear for $300. Maybe a new one from China with 16″ rubber tires. Cheapest of all options. It would perform fine. Con: But, to my eye, look stupid. But of course it wouldn’t be hard to move the box to a better platform later on.

I am hoping to get on the road for $2000 or less all told. I’ve thought of several things to put on the back to amuse motorists, and so far the front-funner is:

Back to the Future

But not in a Delorean.

Looking forward to others’ thoughts or suggestions.

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Erik, As usual I love your idea. I can see the bright colors of your wagon as soon as you say it. I once knew a guy who had a forecart not unlike my own except he had bright chrome hub caps. To this day I think it was one of the best forecarts I ever saw. Here is my point. I think with a bright and beautiful box no one will much notice the gear. You would appreciate it’s authenticity perhaps. A fitfh wheel wagon with wooden wheels is not as pleasant to drive every day, I am sure. I would consider brakes if you are going down many hills each time you go to town. I would also consider a cheap set of lights for winter work and after hours. Well those are just my idea of what I might do. I can’t wait to see it on the road. Good luck. Hope to see you at the NEAPFD!

[goodcompanion]

Donn,

A vote for the practical over the pure. Thanks, I needed that.

One compromise that might look all right and drive smoothly is a metal utility chassis designed for a 4 x 8′ bed with 28″ garden way pneumatic cart wheels on all four corners instead of the 16″ wheels this chassis usually comes with. Seems the garden way cart wheels have the same 5/8″ bore, and are rated strong enough to do the job.

The garden way cart wheels have some of the look and proportions of an old wagon wheel but are cheap and practical.

Box aside, it would look kind of like this, best link I could find:

http://www.estatewagons.com/Signature%20Wagon.jpg

That website with the picture sells the wagon in the picture for $1500 even as a kit. But I could get the chassis and the wheels from another source for maybe $450. Maybe add some pioneer bolster springs and shafts and we are ready for the box under $650, total material bill of $1300 or so.

[Rod]

I think I would be a little leary of those wheels on the wagon in the picture. Seem kind of light duty for that wagon especially if it gets any kind of a load in it. Note that the wagon is new, I wonder what the wheels will look like after some heavy use.
Northern tool has an assortment of wheels, axels, brakes and other useful parts to build running gears. I have also seen some good used stuff on ebay and also craigs list.

[goodcompanion]

Okay, thanks Rod, a good lead.

Here is the new frontrunner for choice of wheels. Rated for 300 lbs and within budget, easily. The whole cart should weigh no more than 1000 lbs fully loaded. What do you think?

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product2_6970_200331764_200331764

[Rod]

If it were me I would stick with wood wheels or small auto types. The 300 lb load capacity does not account for bumps, twists and other non-raidial shock or off center loadings which can happen on curbs, rocks, potholes etc. I think that type wheel is most suited to two wheel fun carts.

I sent more info by PM check that out also.

[goodcompanion]

Okay, let’s talk wooden wheels and hubs. My trip into town is 2.5 miles round trip.

Right now I am thinking of using the “4 x 8 utility wagon” chassis with 3/4″ axles. These come with little rubber tires on them that would be functional enough though it might be a little hard to see over the tops of the horses, since the wheels are so small.

Here is a picture of the chassis:

http://www.farmtek.com/farm/supplies/prod1;ft1_carts_wagons;pg103446_103446.html

But probably I could mount amish-made wooden wheels on the same chassis to good result? I have noticed some wheels have a plain bore through a wooden hub, others have a sealed bearing. Some have steel tires and others rubber. See any reason such wheels couldn’t work on the above chassis? When carriage wheels are mounted, are they secured to the axle with a washer and cotter pin, like the go-carts of my youth, or some other means? How are they lubricated?

http://www.accentsofcountry.com/wagonwheels

The bill for wheels plus the chassis would be around $6-800 which sounds good enough to me.

It does strike me though that if I went with steel-bound wheels for daily use, it might be handy to also have a set of those garden cart wheels, or just use the small automotive wheels the chassis comes with, for longer trips over smooth roads.

Once I select a wheel and chassis I will draft and post complete plans and make regular updates as construction proceeds.

Long live the horsedrawn commercial vehicle.

[Joshua Kingsley]

The only thing that I can say is that the wagon gear you are looking at has one large flaw. The steering linkage is very weak. I modified the one I have and use around the farm with my 4 wheeler. If you would like to see the gear befor you buy one let me know. I am not all that far from you. I was thinking that mine could be used with little modification with a small team of ponies.

[Rod]

Be sure the wheel you pick out does not say decorative. There are good wooden wheels around and good advice from wheel builders. I know there are lots of choices and axle combinations. For safety and durability and considering all the work and material that will go into the wagon I would talk to the folks at Witmer Coach Shop In NH PA or some one similar for some sound guidance. They sell axles also which means you can build your frame yourself from wood or steel.
There is a person in Putney VT that is selling off a collection of old wooden wheel wagon frames with wheels. I can give you the e-mail if you want. Might be just what you are looking for and the prices have been very reasonable.

[goodcompanion]

@Joshua Kingsley 2268 wrote:

The only thing that I can say is that the wagon gear you are looking at has one large flaw. The steering linkage is very weak. I

That is good to know.

[goodcompanion]

@Rod 2270 wrote:

Be sure the wheel you pick out does not say decorative. There are good wooden wheels around and good advice from wheel builders. I know there are lots of choices and axle combinations. For safety and durability and considering all the work and material that will go into the wagon I would talk to the folks at Witmer Coach Shop In NH PA or some one similar for some sound guidance. They sell axles also which means you can build your frame yourself from wood or steel.
There is a person in Putney VT that is selling off a collection of old wooden wheel wagon frames with wheels. I can give you the e-mail if you want. Might be just what you are looking for and the prices have been very reasonable.

I think that unless I build it from the start with wood wheels, rubber tires, and some sort of springs, I’m probably going to want to be able to interchange wheels for different jobs. I didn’t think this would be possible, or at least wouldn’t be easy, on an old farm wagon gear. I have been looking at those ones in Putney but they are a little over-built for my purposes. But I do understand that there’s one left in the collection you mentioned not on the market yet. Could be the one.

I’ll look into that coach shop too. Thanks.

[Carl Russell]

Good to see you here Eric.

Fred Merriam at Acme Carriage Works in Braintree, may be a good resource. Some of his stuff is wicked expensive, but he knows wagons etc, and wheels, and he often has used equipment around that may get you an affordable sturdy start. http://www.acmecarriage.com
Looks like a great project.
Good luck,
Carl

[ngcmcn]

Erik,

Why don’t you stick with original design, get the correct size wooden wheels and axels from some where? there are a lot of folks that build them, then go to a spring shop and have springs made for the weight of the vehicle which isn’t that expensive, and slightly modify the undercarriage to make it blend in.
Another trick that boat builders do is to paint the roof then put down canvas and paint it again. A few more coats and she’s water proof.

Goodluck, looks like a good project.

neal mcnaughten
Unity, me.

[goodcompanion]

Believe me, I’d like to. But if I can’t do it within budget then there is no project. I’d rather have the wagon in service this year on a rusty haywagon gear with four different-looking tires, and upgrade the gear later when resources allow, than table the project for another year.

Money’s an issue. So is time. But naturally so to are function and aesthetics. But it does seem that buying nice new wheels and springs that might be within my reach.

[Rod]

[IMG]http://C:Documents and SettingsOwnerMy DocumentsMy Pictures2008_07_24[/IMG] This is a wagon I just (almost ) finished. The base gear was an old hay wagon I bought for $50 about 30 years ago. We shortened the frame 3′ welded on the stake pockets, front crash bar, modified the tongue for the horse pole and added the removable seat and friction brakes. It weighs about 1000 Lbs. and my halfinger team pulls it up some steep grades ok. It will give you an idea what a modified hay wagon would look like. I plan to haul hay and people with it, plus other stuff.
OOps, I guess the picture diden’t work, so I put it in the photo gallery under equipment. Hope it helps.

[Author]

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