balky horse

[Will Stephens]

So I did it to myself. My team has had too much time off. As I have been working with them to get them back to working, my mare has been balky. She does not appear to be in any pain. She leads perfectly. I can go up to her in the fields and pick her feet up with no problems. As we where first starting back up she would refuse to be caught but that seams to have been solved. I am getting what I ask of her in the round pen. She ground drives with responsiveness and precision. The problem starts when I hitch a fence post to her. She refuses to go. She will pull it if I lead her, though she rushes. That said, the weak link for my team has been there pace. They are not great slow walkers which has not been a problem because they have been primarily a road team. My intuition is that it is a respect issue. She is quite smart and is the dominant horse on the farm. Her work ethic was exemplary for the first 6-8 months I had her. A couple of months off and I have a lot of work ahead of me. I am looking for some advice at least on what not to do.
I thought of hitching the team together to use the geldings willingness to help jump start her but I am thinking that is jot such a great idea given the fact that the gelding is submissive to her already and I don’t want to sour his effort. I have kept the round pen activities controlled ad positive. Only asking what I know they will give me to try re-establishing the trust that I will always put them in a position to succeed. Should I be ramping up the pressure on her there? Asking for more than she wants to give to re-assert my position as leader in the relationship? I welcome any thoughts.

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Will, I hope you don’t mind if I ask a few questions. What is your goal? What work will they be doing? How much and how often? In my opinion round pens are a double edge sword. Like any tool they can help us achieve our goal or sometimes become a distraction or worse. For an animal with little or no relationship with people, or perhaps the wrong relationship with people; a round pen can be used as a barrier to push against so the animal will reverberate back to the human. With some skill and care this can teach an animal to look to humans for leadership. As someone to follow.

Animals that already know this are often taken back into the round pen by folks that are attached to the security it provides. This can lead to an animal questioning the leadership. A sort of “why are we here?” moment. Be sure to provide leadership. Know where you are going. Challenge the animal.

With a trained animal that has had some time off, I would make almost no exceptions, maybe a little patience, But I would expect them to know everything they ever did and do everything they ever did. If they pulled logs before, and I was behind them today, I would ask them to go. Resistance to go would be met with pressure from me (carefully placed and modulated) to make them go until they move. Don’t retrain them for two months off, just put them back to work. that is my two cents from a distance. Easy to say and still hard work sometimes. It easily could be more complicated than I make it.

[Carl Russell]

Will, I don’t know if this will be helpful, but one of the reasons I have horses is because of their affordability. If I don’t have work for them, or other work I need to concentrate on, I can afford to leave them alone for months at a time. That being said, there are side effects, some of which you may be experiencing.

Donn has mentioned several times how horses strive to be comfortable. You obviously recognize that as you mention that in regard to your objective in the round pen. When horses are not pressed upon for long periods of time they become accustomed to their own comfort parameters….. their comfort zone. I have found that every time I approach horses after such a down-period, I need to re-affirm that I can see that zone, and that my objective is to reward them for remaining comfortable as I gain their attention and lead them to leave the comfort zone.

I equate this to starting into a lengthy email, or measuring a 2×4, or just sitting down to a cup of coffee, and Lisa, or the kids, or a phone call, interrupts me with some pressing comment or discussion. It doesn’t matter how much I love these people, or how much I am committed to responding to them, I feel a tinge of discomfort and frustration…. I cannot believe how many things Lisa swears she told me, but I don’t remember. However, if when approaching they can see how busy I am, or focused, or relaxed, and give me some room and time to shift my focus to them, then it is a completely different experience for me.

Of course as an adult human being I have the responsibility to learn form this and to make myself comfortable with the disruptions. However, a horse is less intellectual, and when they become dependent on themselves for comfort maintenance, they require a consistently subtle approach.

This relates to what I read above in two ways. First I see her resistance to your effort for her to pull as both she is unclear about the message, and uncertain about the outcome. What comes to mind for me is that she i not trusting outside of her comfort zone, and she cannot differentiate this request from any other initiative of yours.

I am currently working with a team of horses that are 9 years old. They have been with me for about 1.5 years. It is likely that they have never had any formal training, other than some evidence that points to some rough treatment, apparently 3-4 years of age. Talk about time off…. I started right away with them working on trust issues. They had been self-motivated for so long that their comfort zone around me was very small. Just reaching up with the halter caused them to back away from me. I made some progress with them last summer, but ran into major issues with disruptive negative response, so I just went back to working the older team and just focused on general handling.

I sold the older team in April, and in May finally got harnesses set and adjusted, so I started working in earnest with them in June. I have yet to hook them to anything, but we are making steady progress. One of the hardest things for me to reconcile is the huge mountain of work that I need to get done with these horses. This is the first time in 30 years that I have not had at least one horse that I could get some work done with, and it is incredibly frustrating, particularly because I can see exactly what I need to do with these horses to get there… The problem is timing.

When I come to our daily workout with this mountain in front of me, and knowing exactly what I need to do, I discount where they are, unconsciously, and I am met with almost instantaneous resistance…. (Kid just ran up and started talking to me while I was in mid-thought about something completely different)…. This is what I have experienced with 2 weeks, or 2 months off….. my expectations are disrespectful of where the horse is, and they return the same. It may seem like the horse is the one that is disrespectful, but this work has helped me to see what I bring to the equation too.

So, what I have been working on with these boys is what I call “Defining the Comfort Zone”. The first thing I do when I approach them in the field is to reward them for their apparent comfort, by washing away any objectives of my own. I approach them with absolute release. This is what I call “seeing” them. When they “see” that I can “see” how comfortable they are, we have begun our conversation. Then I assert some pressure, any pressure to see how they respond. If they are resistant, or move away, then I stop immediately and return to the release…. showing them that I can “see” the limits of their comfort zone. This is how I define the comfort zone. At once, it is information for me, but it also is informative for them, and they begin to understand that I am respecting them, and they begin to think that they can respect me….. maybe not trust yet.

Once I get them to respect me and show that I can expand their comfort zone a bit, they will start to realize that I have an objective to get them out of it, but that I know where they are comfortable, and will return there quickly and often. This way that not only begin to accept the expanding comfort zone, but more importantly begin to trust me as I push them out.

It is very hard work for me, as I tend to want to take large steps. These geldings have too much history of not having, or avoiding, expanding comfort zones, to make big steps, so I have to remember two things; I can’t put on the roof until the foundation is laid, and I need to recognize the slightest tries.

This may all relate to your effort to hook her to a fence post as it seems like she is telling you that it is too big of a step. I have had some major negative responses to stepping into shafts, and backing up to the singletree (especially after chains have jingled)….. on the surface pretty simple fundamental lessons, but clearly too big steps. For the shafts I started working on the lead again, and asking the horse to back in between the shafts. When I started, it was all resistance in every direction, so again, too big of a step…. What can I ask and get a positive response? One step forward… good release. One step back? good… release…. a few more times, a back step in between the shafts, good, release. I had to let go of my apparently simple objective, and get even more simple.

For the single tree, I drove the horses up to it so that they had to step on it…. chains jingle, same negative response, but this time VERY responsive to backing. I even followed it up by putting the single tree in front of the water trough so they had to step on it every time they go to water. After a week we are no dragging the single tree around.

I am about to hitch them to something like a fence post. They are huge horses, and should have no problem moving a 6 inch piece of firewood 20 feet long…. this is where my mind goes…. especially with 60 Mbf of sawlogs and 30 cords of wood ready to harvest….. but the approach I plan to take is to practice backing and standing, and starting with the single tree, as if I had hitched to something, until they show me they are comfortable with that, and comfortably responsive with my pressure to advance, before I actually hook something behind them.

I try to see the endeavor as not relating to the components of the situation, but to the communication. When I get a demonstration that they are not responsive to the communication, it doesn’t matter how simple the task seems to be, even in the case of a more experienced horse, and I know that they have done it before, I find it really comes down to me thinking about which part of the directive are they not getting.

So I guess this relates by showing the horse at every juncture that I can see where they are comfortable, that I can reward them for that, that when I give pressure it will be returned, and that when I expect something, that I am willing to dig down and reduce the expectation until the steps are clear enough that the communication is effective.

Hope that helps. Good luck, Carl

[Will Stephens]

Thanks to both of you for taking the time for such thoughtful responses.

My team’s primary job is carriage/wagon rides. I have made a low tech road scrape similar to one I sa3 in Rural heritage in the last two years. My sand road needs constant maintenance and its great exercise, physical and mental. An easy way to get regular work done several days per week. I wish I had thought of that earlier! There are other tasks that would be great to add when we get to that. I am currently scheduled to give hayrides at our county fair in a month…. and I really don’t want to use my tractor.

I too have mixed feelings about the round pen. I have used it with her as a way to encage her before work primarily. It helps the gelding quite a bit but having been thinking about Donn’s comments, that may have not helped her particularly as I have been engaging her feet but not so much her brain.

I agree in principal hat she know how pull a pole on the ground but Karl may be on to something when he talks about adding steps. She ground drives great. She pulls it on lead. She backs to the single tree nicely. Maybe I simply need to add a few extra steps like hooking the single tree to one trace at a time. Then add chain only. Then maybe something even smaller (knowing its not weight that is the issue but to bring her up more slowly to be sure she knows what I am asking and knows what I am expecting.

And of course the rub is in how to apply more pressure in expecting her to do what I know she has done. I asked. I asked more strongly. I tapped her hind end with a driving crop. What else can I do short of scaring her into moving (obviously not the answer).

You guys are really great. Thank you.

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Will, I do hope our comments are helpful, although sometimes it is hard to see how with so many variables. It makes for an interesting conversation if nothing else. At first glance Carl’s and my responses seem to be opposites, but really I think they are two sides of the same coin. Lately I find my self telling folks I am working that I am often going to give them two answers for each of their questions.

I think you picked up on the idea that there was room for both. Look at the horse (a new look) and thinking about does it need a little more pressure, or a little more release. That is the fun, challenge, and sometimes frustration of being a teamster.

I was just thinking, I have never really worked with a truly balky horse. I have worked with lots of animals that would hesitate to go, but that isn’t really the same as balky I don’t think. With animals that hesitate I sometimes increase the pressure, but usually the first thing I do is ask myself; am I or who ever is driving using the best possibly techniques for starting? Sometimes we get a little lax with our contact or the rhythm between voice and hands. When I pick up the lines and make contact with a horse that has been hesitating, I will hold slightly more contact on one side than the other (even if my desire is to go straight). A horse with it head turned will take a step just to get its feet back under it. I try not to release that contact until the animal is moving. My analogy for this is if we were standing side by side and we wanted to see who would move their feet. I would put a hand on your should and slowly start to push, that would shift you off balance and you would eventually move your foot. This has worked well for me with horses that were just making teamsters work too hard at getting them to go. Seems like your horse might be telling you more than that but maybe not.

[Carl Russell]

Donn, I don’t think our responses are opposites. I always expect a horse to be able to do what I know they can….. I was mostly highlighting how unwillingness from a horse can indicate miscommunication.

The expectations that build within us during the down-time can often create problems for us by shrouding our view of the reality of the moment, which I have found to interfere with communication. Also, that the horse’s resistance can indicate the step is too big, or the pressure too advanced.

I usually do all of this appraisal and reaction in a very short period of time with horses that I have worked with for a while. It is only now working with this untrained team that I am getting more clarity on how the steps break down. It is helpful for me to understand, and I think can inform the process for all of us.

I agree with everything you wrote. I approach any animal with a sense of confidence that they can do everything I ask of them….. It is an essential posture and mindset. It is however seasoned with an active flexibility that shows the horse that I see where they are, and will work with them to make myself clear about what I want…..

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Oh yeah, and Will, I have found that a stick, about 4 feet long ( not a two-hander…. I know you thought I was grabbing a club.?), often cut like a marshmallow stick, with a fork slightly sharpened works great to motivate a horse. It can be held easily in a hand with a rein, and does not require any extra hand movement for use. I just stand within reach of the tail-head and give the horse my normal command for advancement at the same time that I gently irritate them right where the tail-hair starts to get longer. It is a very sensitive spot on a horse, and I have found most horses cannot resist the tendency to move forward. This is not a jab, or a slap, or anything aggressive, just an uncomfortable sensation that you are making at exactly the same time you chirp, kiss, or ask them to move.

I particularly like it because it can be used without any additional hand movement that could telegraph it to the horse so they never know if it is coming. You should be careful though, because it can be surprising, and if you are too close you could be kicked, although I have to say I have never had a horse kick when I do it.

The problem with crops and whips is that they are generally pretty benign and horses can become immune to them. And the only way to make them less so is to create significant hand movement which serves to confuse your starting rein command. Also using the whipping motion can create whooshing sounds that alert the horse to what is coming, which can harden their resistance, or set them up for moving every time they hear a whoosh.

Some resistant horses need a harder poke, but not for long. I rarely need to use the device more than a few times, but if I think they need a refresher, it is a matter of slicing one off a nearby sapling, and back on track….

The main thing to remember is to touch the animal at exactly the same time you make your command. I like to kiss, or suck on my teach, as that is a staccato command that matches the touch. I give a ready command by picking up slack and making contact with the bit, maybe a verbal ready at the same time as gathering slack, but when I see the horse’s ears or head-carriage indicate that they are online, I touch and kiss.

This tuning I would use in a situation like you describe, even if she was a willing starter in every other situation. She just needs to be reminded that the command to start means …. Start.

Not being there I don’t know anything about what you are doing, so my first post was to point out how I have learned to see that the resistance doesn’t always mean that she needs more pressure….. Sometimes it means that I have not made myself clear, or that I have missed some other subtle indicator.

Good luck, Carl

[Carl Russell]

So true to form, I had a few more thoughts while doing chores..

What I was trying to get at was that when I see a horse resist pressure, I have learned to realize that they are unclear about our pressure-based conversation.

Horses respond to pressure, we know that. The question in my mind is whether they are responding to my, or to their own, initiative. If a horse is resistant, it makes me think that they have become accustom to making the choice on their own.

Of course more pressure will cause them to move, but I want to know whether it is because they understand how and why I am using pressure, or is it still because they decided they wanted to get away from the pressure.

That is how I use flexibility. I use the most simple forms of pressure, over and over every day, building up to more intense requests like lifting heavy loads, to measure their response, and to show them how I can use pressure, and release, to get my subtle points across. It is the conversation, the accepted use of, and response to, pressure that leads up to the consistent response that I expect when working.

More pressure without a firm grasp on that communication can lead to perpetual challenges. Also I am not interested in a horse that is submissive, or succumbs to the discomfort of substantial pressure. I want a horse that moves forward with their inherent demonstration of power through motion so that I can go along and use it to my advantage.

I personally usually do not have problems with horses not moving away from my pressure. I have learned how to escalate my intention to very high levels, and I know how to use it magnanimously, and how to keep a cap on it…. apparently it is not far below the surface. Because of this, I end up focusing much more on release because the pressure seems second nature.

However, none of this may apply to any of what you are doing, it is just an indication of some of the layers that can exist within these relationships.

Carl

[Will Stephens]

The value to in this forum and the relationships built here is in the open sharing of experiences, good, bad or indifferent. I can’t find a leak in the roof without going to the house to look. But my experience tells me the best places to start looking. This has been a big help. It is hard on this island without other draft and driving horses and not may good horse owners around, never mind mentors. We bought our small farm from out mentor who now lives very far away. So thank you again. I will post our progress.

[Will Stephens]

Update:
Carl, I made a quick pronged stick and had it at the ready. I harnessed her, picked up the reins with intent, and promptly drop the stick as she responded immediately to my energy level. As an inexperienced teamster I was questioning how hard to push. She is very strong willed. If she doesn’t want to do something she will not do it. This caused me to be so concerned about creating a situation where should would start choosing not to go more frequently.
Why did she decided to go that day with no trouble? I think it really comes down to my attitude. I wasn’t out there just to diddle around. We had a job coming up that we needed to get ready for and I was of the mind that we needed to get the job done so we just had to go do it.
She has been great since. We just spent the entire day giving hayrides at the fair and they did a great job.
When we first got there she did not want to go and again a simple re-focusing of my energy and she went to work for the next 6 horse (with breaks). We raised about $400.00 for the fair and came home tired and renewed.
I learned a few other things too. How to recognize when she needs a break is a big one. I had trouble all day getting her brother to pull his share of the weight so she was working really hard all day. She will go until she can’t anymore and I realize how important of a job it is for me to see that before it happens and keep her fresh in body and mind. I also realized that as a team they have a hard time starting on a larger load. This showed itself starting a full wagon up a hill. As their teamster, it is up to me to develop this ability in them from a mental/confidence point of view. Of course really I was just seeing for the first time what Neil tried to tell me after he had then for a time last summer.
The summary is this: the more we do, the more we learn, the more we can do, the more I appreciate the lessons people are sharing with me.
Pukka is a strong willed mare and is proving to keep me very honest and rewarding me when I am with her own great work ethic.

Thanks guys.

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[Does’ Leap]

Hi Will:

I have been following this thread with interest and am glad to hear that you are making progress with this mare. My experience is that a strong-willed horse can be very hard-working and dedicated once you gain their respect and trust.

Winston Churchill once said “Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm.” Way to stick with it.

George

[Carl Russell]

Great to know Will. The point always is, you only need to push as hard as necessary. The props are never, or should never be, the focus. The pressure always comes from you, and the stick is just for clarification. If it isn’t needed throw it away.

Sometimes just being prepared to use the stick is enough. It may have assisted you to conger up the confidence that you were going to get what you want from her, and she saw that.

Those are the components of communication that I always seem to focus in on. I don’t want the horse to see, or feel the stick, but I use it so that they can see my intent. As soon as I see that they see me, and respond to me, then I get rid of the stick.

Good job, and have fun, Carl

[wally b]

Sounds like you figured it out, but I think the usual cause of a horse not going when pulling is that they are feeling too much bit pressure and are confused as to the command. This is especially true in young horses that arnt accustomed to carrying a bit. I have seen this problem several times. The driver is actually holding the horse back. The horse starts, stops or even backs up. A bit strap can clarify this situation.

You can make offset eveners to load you team differently. There are photos of an example of offs eveners, bit straps in use on my Facebook page:

workhorseworkshops.com click on the ‘F”

Wally

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