barefoot/CPL

[jac]

Does anyone out there do the barefoot trimming in their draft horses and if you have a CPL problem do you think the fact that a barefoot trim shortens up the toe and drops the heels which i think improves flexability bcause of improved break over helps the CPL ?? I ask because when I was away for 8 weeks my wife had to get a farrier in and he did a regular pasture trim.. longer toes and flared quarters with taller heels than i like… and i am certain the swellings are a lot worse now.. Could the barefoot trim be helping ??? Any thoughts would be much appreciated…
John

[tsigmon]

What is CPL?

[gwpoky]

Hello, I am a farrier here is western WI and I bring the toes back on 99% of the horses I leave bare foot and most of the horses I shoe I set the shoe back just a bit and bevel the toe of the shoe to allow for greater brake over. Do this not only relieves stress on the hoof it relieves it on the shoulders, hips and backs of most horses. The first thing most Vets in this area suggest on lameness above the hoof is to set the toe back to increase brake over. Hope this helps a bit.

[Big Horses]

It’s so nice to hear a farrier with knowledge of what’s really goin on in that hoof! Too many think the flared, platters are “really cool” and don’t care what’s happening to the horse! If ya don’t believe that, just go watch a “hitch” class at a draft horse show…pretty pathetic!
John

[jac]

CPL is chronic progressive lymphadema. Its very common in Clydes Shires and I think your Western Belgians have it.. I have done a lot of reading on it and it is the same thing known as greasy heel and scratches can be mistaken for the early stages. Swellings round the pasterns and foot stamping are the main symtoms, then in latter stages the greesy heel starts. My vet thinks its a lack of elasticity in the lower leg which prevents the lymphatic fluid from draining.. this was my thoughts behind the trim idea. Im sticking with the barefoot trim because it works for my horses. I hate the big flared feet we have over here as well.. the leaverage forces going on in the foot must be horrific!!..on the few occassions I take horses to a show I allways get told my horses feet are too small.. I just smile sweetly now and dont even bother trying to explain now…. Thanks for the imput guys.
John

[Marshall]

I noticed that also at our county fair this year. There where some that put so much putty on the hooves that they made them square. Then they painted them black. Even with the paint you could tell they where made up. They looked like he!!. To top it off they make them walk stupid. They would actually stay in one spot and stomp their feet up and down. I am not into show horses, can you tell.

[jac]

Marshall I dont know if the Clyde boys do it over there but here in the UK they square the toe and let the quarters grow out allmost flat !!. the hinds are worse. the inside gets shaved off and the outside quarter is grown the same as the front !! All this so the horse stands and walks with his hocks touching?? Any time I have been behind a horse on a heavy pull his hind leg makes a pretty straight line from the point of hip thru the hock and down to the foot..If those show horses throw a shoe I recon the foot breaks up in less than an hour.. certainly no use for work.. the Feb picture on the draft horse callender is a great example of the show shoe.. Tremendous team though..
John

[Matthew]

Horses were and still are in some places wild animals. They were not ment to carry a rider, jump over things, pull a plow. They also were not ment to live in a confinement and have thair feed brought to them. You can pretty mutch find any problem with a horse and blame it on man. I love horses and don’t get me wrong I am not bashing horse owners but foot problems, collic, founder, dental problems and probably a hundred more can be blamed on the fact that we keep horses as domesticated animals. In the wild horses feet ware at the same rate they grow, it is when we use horses for work or riding that they need shoes a wild horses feet dont ware out because he is not working, walking on pavement or carring a 200 pound man on his back. A wild horse will not collic or founder because he is eating a diet of pour wild grasses and during most of the year probably has all he can do to keep his belly full. Problems assosiated with older horses are simply explained by a wild horse would not live as long as a horse that has a shelter and all his meals brought to his stall. I am not a expert on the life span of a wild horse but I dont think thair are to many 30 year old wild horses. If your teeth go you can’t get the proper nutrents and probably dont make it through the winter. The point I am making is once you get away from the wild natrual animal part of the horse you can have problems, trying to keep a horse in his natural state or as close as your situation will allow you to is your best bet. If you need your horse in shoes than that is what you must do to keep thair feet in good shape or provide traction. But shooeing to make a horse have a certan gait or look like he has a huge foot is in my opinion stupid and asking for trouble. I went to horse shoeing school after high school and was tought to trim all horses to thair natural angle, the angle of thair sholder should be the same angle as the hoof. If you take off to mutch heal they will be to shallow and will pull and strech thair tendons, leave to mutch heel and they will be at to steep of a angle. I personaly always take as mutch toe off as I can it eases break over and long toes do more harm than short toes. Alot of horses grow all toe and no heels so by the next trim they are triping on thair long toes. In shoeing school we worked on a founderd horse that had a coffin bone about to go through his sole and could hardly walk, we put a regular shoe on backwards so the open part was open towards the toe and rasped as mutch toe off as we could to ease the preshure of the break over the horse could walk better just after the shooeing. This is all just my opinion I would keep all horses as (natural) as your situation allows, nothing drives me more nuts than to see a horse with a soaking wet blankit half falling off because it is so waterloged on a 50 degree day in november because the owner is convinced the horse is freezing to death.

[jac]

Well said Matthew.. I agree on the rugs as well. As i always say.. it works for me. My Clydes do a small amount of tar work and a lot of field work and their feet stay in good condition but I am on a rasp near enough every week. I still think its amazing that those wild mustangs can roam over 20 miles a day and have great feet..
John

[Jared Ashley]

John, here is another farrier’s opinion. the pasture trim that your horse recieved was the farrier being lazy and not a regular trim. i agree with gwpoky. unless a horse needs the longer toe for speed, such as a standardbred, why give them that extra stress. i also agree with matthew about the horses own natural angle. i try to match the shoulder, pastern and hoof angle as well. i also dress all flares, they create too much stress, and if you ever notice on a barefoot horse that is overdue, they usually always start to chip out their flared quarters first. just my thoughts.
Jared

[sickle hocks]

I think the farriers have spoken well…a good farrier will trim for a balanced foot in three dimensions, taking into account the horse’s individual conformation. On the other hand, a poor or lazy farrier can produce a bad trim.

If your horse’s job will allow it to go barefoot then that is always best…At the same time, shoes can be a necessary evil in many situations, and can be very beneficial. ‘Natural’ horses don’t live in the variety of climates and conditions that ours do, nor do they do the same jobs or live the same lifestyles.

I think it’s important to know that a good farrier is perfectly capable of trimming a horse to go barefoot in a correct way. There is a certain amount of fad thinking that seems to go along with the ‘natural’ and ‘barefoot’ hype…some of those trim styles have some anatomical basis and some merit, others not so much….some force hoofs to meet an arbitrary, idealized standard regardless of the individual horse’s conformation or job and can cause real damage. Check out how much training and knowledge ‘barefoot trim’ people have, and IMHO I would be cautious about trendy personalities advocating one-size-fits-all dogmatic trimming principles.

Sorry if that’s inflammatory, it’s a button for me. Traditional farriers come in good and bad too. Your horse deserves the good…

[sickle hocks]

That was a bit of flame wasn’t it? Sorry. I also agree with earlier posters about the contrived trims and double pads and such that are common in some horse show environments…it’s a shame how humans have to take everything to excess

[Mac]

John, here’s an old hill-farmer’s opinion. I try the best to shape my horses hooves as naturally as possible. I also try to keep the toes in. I hate wide, flat feet! Hate them! One of my boys wears a single ought shoe. The other one wears a two and the other one wears a three. I’m sorry I can’t really describe how I trim and shoe very well, all I know to say is that I shoe ’em to work, not to show. Mine ain’t matched and ain’t liable to win any show contests, save maybe farm team on the year for N. Central Arkansas.
Mac

[jac]

Sickle hocks and Mac, thanks for your response. I have been doing this trim for a while now and it seem to work for what I do. Toes well back, no flares , heels down and well rounded walls seems to be the answer to stop them splitting. Im on the rasp every week but most of the time it requires nothing much till 4 weeks or so. Im not a “barefoot” geek and if my work load changes and their feet were tearing up then shoes would be on. One thing I did notice was that the flatfootedness is getting less…
John

[sickle hocks]

Jac that sounds like a sensible trim, i didn’t get that you were doing it yourself, thought you were comparing barefoot trimmers to farriers. Interesting that the flat-footedness is improving.

It’s nice to see someone keeping up on hoofcare. I was looking for a team here and everything in my price range had badly neglected feet, it was depressing. Just got a pair home and their feet are mini disasters but they are going to have to wait a few more days while they learn to pick up a foot…no one bothered to teach them.

I’ve never heard of trims affecting CPL, but if it really is something structural or ‘mechanical’ that influences the drainage then I can definitely imagine a trim affecting it, you might be on to something. It would be interesting to look in to.

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