Beetles, rust and dead trees, oh my.

[Scott G]

Geoff,

We are getting the double whammy, bark beetles (MPB) & WPBR. MPB is blowing everything out of the water that we thought we knew about the species, including going to higher elevations (here 10,000′ easy). We are in the midst of a large genetic conservation project to collect white pine cones, grow out the seed, and test the progeny for rust resistance. Like Carl mentioned, WPBR has an alternate host (like all rust fungi) and those are Ribes sp.. Rusts have five life (spore) stages, 3 of which reside on the alternate host (Ribes) and 2 on the white (5-needled) pine.

Our biggest threat that other regions have not had to deal with is that MPB is killing off most of (if not all) the seed trees and WPBR is taking out the small regen & sapling/pole sized stock. That is why I said we are truly in a dire situation of quit possibly losing an entire high elevation ecosystem type. The race is on for cone collection before the good seed trees get nuked by MPB. Unfortunately the limber pine cone crop sucks this year.

Hi Scott,

I started another thread because I didn’t want to hijack the great thread RE: Carl’s project but I still wanted to ask something’s about beetles and rust etc.

The radio show I was listening to RE: WBP demise was called On Point (I’m sure it’s available online) and the moderator was focusing on the climate change/global warming aspect – is this a tangible result ….

Anyway, they did interview a scientist with 30-40 yrs working with the bark beetle (whatever the species is) and his big concern was that the beetle was now able to infest the WBP, a tree that had no history of having ever dealt with this beetle – primarily due to elevation (resulting in cool enough summer temps that the beetle couldn’t survive there). The double whammy for the WBP is that it’s primary method of dispersal is via a bird, the Clark’s Nutcracker, that caches seed all over the place and some of it germinates ….. With the demise of the mature WBP stands, the bird will switch to another easier food resource thus limiting any new trees coming into the population.

I know some folks are skeptical about the climate change argument but at the least this demonstrates how tight the relationships between organisms and their environment can be.

[near horse]

Nice, Carl. You give some of us hope when you show these cooperative logging operations!

Scott – I heard a story on the radio that the demise of whitebark pines was due to infestation with bark beetles – that never used to be able to survive at the elevation WBP’s grow (near 8000 ft, isn’t it?). Do they also get blister rust? Western white pine used to be the cash tree here in Idaho 100 yrs ago and the University maintains a whitepine seed lot(?) – to produce seed considered more resistant to the rust …

Sorry about hijacking the thread. Just seemed to fit.

[Carl Russell]

Scott G;20071 wrote:

…. white pine blister rust (Cronartium ribicola)? I thought you guys had that licked for the most part in the NE. ….

Not really. There was a huge Ribes (Gooseberry/Currant, secondary host) eradication program during 1950-60’s, but like all things, it was only partially successful. Now people can by gooseberries and plant them. It is really only a small portion of trees that are affected, and by cutting those trees we can interrupt the life cycle of the fungus.

Carl

[Scott G]

@near horse 20077 wrote:

Scott – I heard a story on the radio that the demise of whitebark pines was due to infestation with bark beetles – that never used to be able to survive at the elevation WBP’s grow (near 8000 ft, isn’t it?). Do they also get blister rust? Western white pine used to be the cash tree here in Idaho 100 yrs ago and the University maintains a whitepine seed lot(?) – to produce seed considered more resistant to the rust …

Geoff,

We are getting the double whammy, bark beetles (MPB) & WPBR. MPB is blowing everything out of the water that we thought we knew about the species, including going to higher elevations (here 10,000′ easy). We are in the midst of a large genetic conservation project to collect white pine cones, grow out the seed, and test the progeny for rust resistance. Like Carl mentioned, WPBR has an alternate host (like all rust fungi) and those are Ribes sp.. Rusts have five life (spore) stages, 3 of which reside on the alternate host (Ribes) and 2 on the white (5-needled) pine.

Our biggest threat that other regions have not had to deal with is that MPB is killing off most of (if not all) the seed trees and WPBR is taking out the small regen & sapling/pole sized stock. That is why I said we are truly in a dire situation of quit possibly losing an entire high elevation ecosystem type. The race is on for cone collection before the good seed trees get nuked by MPB. Unfortunately the limber pine cone crop sucks this year.

So, there’s your answer. I also do not want to hijack the thread. The current show Carl has going is way cool and exactly the type of combined system I have been on the soapbox about in the past.

If we want to start a different forest health thread that would be OK. Right now I’m consumed with getting my wife/daughters through the mayhem of the County fair.

[Scott G]

@near horse 20096 wrote:

Hi Scott,

I started another thread because I didn’t want to hijack the great thread RE: Carl’s project but I still wanted to ask something’s about beetles and rust etc.

I agree. Carl, can you move those segments of the thread over here?

@near horse 20096 wrote:

The radio show I was listening to RE: WBP demise was called On Point (I’m sure it’s available online) and the moderator was focusing on the climate change/global warming aspect – is this a tangible result …

There is no doubt in my mind. I prefer to refer to it as climate change. I have my opinions, but it is happening for whatever reason be it natural or man-made.

@near horse 20096 wrote:

Anyway, they did interview a scientist with 30-40 yrs working with the bark beetle (whatever the species is) and his big concern was that the beetle was now able to infest the WBP, a tree that had no history of having ever dealt with this beetle – primarily due to elevation (resulting in cool enough summer temps that the beetle couldn’t survive there). The double whammy for the WBP is that it’s primary method of dispersal is via a bird, the Clark’s Nutcracker, that caches seed all over the place and some of it germinates ….. With the demise of the mature WBP stands, the bird will switch to another easier food resource thus limiting any new trees coming into the population.

Density, diversity, & climate. Due to fire exclusion and management/mis-management of the past century we have phenomenally dense stands across all forest cover types that the sites can’t sustainably support. Also. the pheromone signals of bark beetles are much more consistent in dense stands vs open stands resulting in more hit trees.

We have way too many pure stands of timber out there. Mixing it up with different tree species and various age classes are the ultimate goals. The only green lodgepole that is being left is from the patch & clearcuts/fires of 20-30 years ago.

Clark’s nutcracker is the most important repro vector for all of our high elevation white pines. Dependent animal species will always favor white pine seeds due to their size and fat content. Clark’s might switch to another food source by necessity but their existence is so tied to white pines that I would expect their population to plummet.

@near horse 20096 wrote:

I know some folks are skeptical about the climate change argument but at the least this demonstrates how tight the relationships between organisms and their environment can be.

The take home messages are 1) we are seeing epidemic populations of all bark beetle species across the board, not just MPB. 2) MPB is “blowing out of the water” all that we thought we knew about the species including multiple annual life cycles (normally one), extended flight times, going into elevations we didn’t think possible, and aggregating up to a half-mile above the canopy and getting dispersed many, many miles downwind by winds aloft. 3) exotic invasive species are going to continue to contribute to the demise of our forests and associated dependent ecosystems. and 4) climatic changes are exacerbating all of the above situations.

In short, it sucks…

[Carl Russell]

Here are a couple of photos of WPBR.

[dlskidmore]

@Carl Russell 20285 wrote:

by cutting those trees we can interrupt the life cycle of the fungus.

I’ve wondered how English hedging techniques would work to preserve the genetic pools of species currently being attacked by fungi. I wasn’t clear from my reading about chestnuts if the fungi didn’t really affect young shoots, or if clear cutting and allowing shoots to regrew interrupted the life cycle of the fungi and delayed spread of the disease to the new shoot. If the former you could lay the hedge in a traditional style and grow the old stems on long enough to grow nuts, while continually generating new shoots to replace the old ones as they are infected beyond hope. If the latter, you’d have to clear cut each cycle and use it just as a windbreak or wildlife hedge in the tall side of the cycle. The hedge would still produce a good pole/firewood crop on a short cycle.

[Scott G]

@dlskidmore 20289 wrote:

I’ve wondered how English hedging techniques would work to preserve the genetic pools of species currently being attacked by fungi. I wasn’t clear from my reading about chestnuts if the fungi didn’t really affect young shoots, or if clear cutting and allowing shoots to regrew interrupted the life cycle of the fungi and delayed spread of the disease to the new shoot. If the former you could lay the hedge in a traditional style and grow the old stems on long enough to grow nuts, while continually generating new shoots to replace the old ones as they are infected beyond hope. If the latter, you’d have to clear cut each cycle and use it just as a windbreak or wildlife hedge in the tall side of the cycle. The hedge would still produce a good pole/firewood crop on a short cycle.

You can prune out infected portions but in the end, at least in my region, it really doesn’t accomplish much.

The fungi kill the host tree by developing a canker that spreads incrementally over time, subseqently killing the portion above the canker by girdling. Big trees take longer to kill than small ones due to the circumference. Seedlings are often toast within a couple of years.

The American chestnut stump sprouts are continually knocked back by chestnut blight. That is why very few grow to a size to amount to much.

[dlskidmore]

@Scott G 20299 wrote:

at least in my region, it really doesn’t accomplish much… Seedlings are often toast within a couple of years.

It might be worth attempting in my region. I hear in some places the trees frequently get to be in their teens before blight hits them.

[near horse]

If I remember correctly, a fungal infestation can predispose a tree to subsequent insect attack. Makes them “more vulnerable”. Is that true?

Also, in fungal attacks, the problem is more systemic than what we see in the form of defoliated limbs etc. Removal of those parts may slow the demise of the tree but it is likely over for that tree.

On a side note – this is the 100 yr anniversary of the great 1910 fire in our region. There are alot of amazing stories regarding this fire, including miners/loggers trying to evacuate on a train that raced into a mile long tunnel and rode out the fire. When they emerged, all RR tressels/bridges were completely gone ….

[Scott G]

@near horse 20332 wrote:

If I remember correctly, a fungal infestation can predispose a tree to subsequent insect attack. Makes them “more vulnerable”. Is that true?

Anything that stresses the tree can make it more susceptible to bark beetles; wpbr, dwarf mistletoe, root compaction, drought, etc., etc….

@near horse 20332 wrote:

Also, in fungal attacks, the problem is more systemic than what we see in the form of defoliated limbs etc. Removal of those parts may slow the demise of the tree but it is likely over for that tree.

WPBR fungi are not systemic. They originate as a focal area of infection that forms a canker. The canker expands annually eventually girdling & killing the portion distal to it. Pruning out infected areas can be beneficial if your dealing with a light infection, but the reality is that other infested areas are developing which you probably don’t notice and you’ll continually prune the tree into oblivion. Definitely worth a try though if you’re dealing with a minmal amount of rust and is something we still recommend to landowners so that they feel like they are “doing something”.

@near horse 20332 wrote:

On a side note – this is the 100 yr anniversary of the great 1910 fire in our region. There are alot of amazing stories regarding this fire, including miners/loggers trying to evacuate on a train that raced into a mile long tunnel and rode out the fire. When they emerged, all RR tressels/bridges were completely gone ….

The wildland refresher this year highlighted the 1910 fires. The entire NW and central Rockies were pretty much on fire due to weather. That fire season triggered the creation/molding of how our current fire suppression crews function and are organized. AKA the “militarization” of the effort.

[Author]

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