Broken Liverpool Bit

[Does’ Leap]

I have been training an 8 year old gelding for the past 6 months in a broken snaffle.  I started him single and have recently been teaming him up with another horse (finally!).  I would like to have him in a liverpool bit when he is with his teammate but do not want to switch to a straight bar as he did not do well in this bit in the past.  Anyone have any experience with a broken liverpool?  Is this considered a more agressive bit compared with a straight bar liverpool?  I anticipate driving him with little or no leverage but would like that option should I feel he needs it.

Thanks.

George

[sickle hocks]

George,  I remember something like this coming up earlier here, but I haven’t figured out how to search the archives in the new format.  If I can find it I’ll link to it here.

Driving isn’t my main area of experience, but I would really caution against using a snaffle -jointed shanked bit…they send a very confusing signal and can really be problematic.  This article does a pretty good job of explaining why, though it’s written from a western perspective and they would call the bit a ‘tom thumb’.

http://www.markrashid.com/trouble_with_tom_thumb.htm

I have heard people I respect say that a shank bit with a double joint or french link style is somewhat better in this regard.

If he’s going good in the snaffle I’d be thinking of keeping him there, and maybe rigging a buck back if I was worried about him.  But like I said, I’ve got a lot to learn about driving.  Maybe a teamster will have more to say.

[Donn Hewes]

Hi George,  You have been working with him for about 8 months in this bit, right?  It is easy to find a lot of opinions about about bits, but I keep one of each on a nail somewhere.  It depends on what the horse will pay the desired attention to, and give the desired responsiveness.  If you have achieved it with that bit I would keep going (d0n’t change it so he has the same bit as everyone else).   I don’t worry about any bit being “mean” (it is not the bit, it is the person).  In other words, with our commitment to no pressure driving, we are not going to abuse a horse with any bit.

In rereading your post it doesn’t sound like you have been using the jointed bit, but are considering changing to one.  I have to change my answer, I have tried to use one a few times and found it to not help me or the horse communicate over a straight bar bit.  You didn’t say what bit you have been using for the last 8 months?  As much as I like the liverpool bit, I don’t use one in every horse, just as I don’t bit down every horse.  Actually it is usually only one or two horses that need this extra signal.  If you don’t bit a horse down when you leave the barn the extra leverage won’t be there if you have a problem.   My point being I can’t really say I use the leverage as a safety measure.  At least not all the time.  I would use any bit, if I felt I was getting the result I wanted.  Calm and relaxed; so easy to say; but hard to do some times!  Good luck and talk to you soon, donn

[Does’ Leap]

Thanks for the input both of you.  SH, that was an interesting article about this bit and the dynamics of it in the horse’s mouth.  Donn, to clear up the confusion on the bit history with this horse, I started driving him on a straight bar liverpool with no leverage.  I have had many struggles with this horse and ended up switching him to a jointed bit.  My wife is training him to ride in a jointed bit and he seemed more comfortable in it so I switched him early on in his training and have been using it ever since.  My main team is driven on straight bar liverpools and my mare on a jointed snaffle.

Although a liverpool bit can act as an emergency brake, what I like best about it is the differential pressure it can add to an individual horse in a team situation.  I generally drive my main team one slot down from the ring wich provides a small degree of leverage.  However, there are times when I add or subtract leverage depending the the horse’s behavior or the working situation.  Although I generally practice low pressure driving, when I am logging I like my horses more on the bit compared to general farm work.  Generally the horses adapt to the situation, but sometimes I will subtract leverage in a logging situation if I want more bit contact.  Another thing I like about the liverpool is the subtle communication it delivers compared with a non-levered bit (in my experience, of course).  If you have ever watched high level dressage, they all use levered bits (in a addition to snaffles in a two rein set-up).

For all these reasons, in addition the emergency brake, I would like to get this gelding in a liverpool.  However, I would like to make the transition as seamless as possible.  Thus the request for info on the jointed liverpool.  This is a very sensitive horse and upsets in his training require days of work to get him back to where he was.  That is why I would like to change as little as possible.

George

 

[sickle hocks]

George, I’m glad you had a chance to read the article.  I agree with Don that there aren’t any ‘mean’ bits.  But a shanked snaffle can be a confusing one, and for a horse like you’re describing that’s at a delicate stage in his training I’d think twice about using one.

When he was having trouble with a straight bar was your wife riding him in the snaffle during the same time period? I’m wondering if the least confusing way to get him in a liverpool might be to try a straight bar again,  maybe first in the saddle and driving single? See how he does now?  I definitely wouldn’t switch bit types when I switched from riding to driving.

Another thought..how old was he when he was having trouble in the straight bar, and what were his teeth doing then?  They go through some sensitive stages and the bar might have  been harder on him then the snaffle then.  Has he ever had his teeth floated?

fwiw….with those double bridles the dressage riders use, all of the horizontal flexion and gait control comes off the snaffle, the curb is set up up so it’s used just for vertical flexion..so you can definitely get some subtle control off just the snaffle

it’s kind of funny, my guys are in liverpools set to zero leverage now and i’ve been thinking i’d like to move them into snaffles….now i think i just convinced myself to stick with what’s working 🙂

[dominiquer60]

Coming from the world of show horses, the jointed bit is often perceived as the most kind. Draft folk seem to lean towards the straight bar bits.  But as Donn says calm and relaxed is the goal, so if this horse is sensitive and responds better to a jointed snaffle, he made prefer a jointed liverpool.  It is very common for many horse folks, work, show or pleasure to have an arsenal of bits on hand, you never know what horse will go best in what, on which day.  I used to show an nice little horse, we had different bits for him depending on what class or who was riding him.  For Hunter classes he did great for me with a snaffle, but the he would pull on the kids without a leverage bit, what ever it took to keep everyone comfortable, happy and safe.

Maybe someone has one that you could borrow and try, or maybe it is worth it to buy one for your bit arsenal. Even if it doesn’t meet your needs today, it may come in handy in the future.

🙂 For entertainment and just to show how important a bit arsenal is to some, they actually make boxes for show folk to take on the road, I have seen these overflowing with metal of all kinds. http://www.birdsongtacktrunks.com/id68.html

 

[Donn Hewes]

Hi George,  I would adjust or change my bit based on what the animal tells me.   If the horse is working well, why change anything?  I have found it difficult sometimes to go and bit down a horse that doesn’t really need it.   I was working with a group horses, not my own, a few weeks ago; and the idea was they all should be bitted down one.  (bitted down is a phrase I use for adjusting the lines lower on the liverpool).  Some of these horses worked well this way, and some clearly needed to have the leverage taken off.   let us know how it works out.  Donn

[grey]

Do you have a shanked bit with a non-jointed mouthpiece that gives some clearance for the tongue? I have found that one of my horses prefers a shaped mouthpiece over a jointed or straight one.  She will go okay in a single-jointed snaffle but she does not like a straight bar anything, at all. Instead, she likes a non-broken mouthpiece that has a curve or arch to it. I guess she must have a low palate or a fat tongue.

Now we have an Icelandic boarded here and his lips are so tight and short that you can’t tighten the headstall to raise the bit above his upper canines. Last year, before his upper canines started to erupt, he was being ridden in a three-piece mouthpiece snaffle (a French Link), which he seemed to like just fine. I don’t like a lot of points of articulation on a driving bit, though, so I was going to try a mullen mouth half cheek/spoon on him for driving. Now these new upper canines of his are throwing a wrench in the works. Going to wait till they are completely in before I decide what to do next. I really don’t want his green owner driving him bitless but removing canines on a male horse is no simple matter. Not sure what we are going to do about that fellow.

Every horse is different if you take the time to get to know them.

[grey]

Maybe something like this: http://www.drivingessentials.com/product_popup.php?ID=60020

This web site only has it up to a 6″ though. Mine take a 6.5″.

[near horse]

“….clearly needed to have the leverage taken off. ”

Hi Donn – what behavior(s) or signs do you see that indicate this?

[grey]

If you’ve got deep pockets and a horse with a 6″ mouth, you can really go to town with the Myler elbow or Liverpool bits: http://www.shipshewanaharness.com/ecommerce/Myler-Bits-Draft-Horse-Size.cfm?&cat_id=506

Although the images all show elbow shanks, the website says that Liverpool shanks are available on all the bits shown.

[dominiquer60]

Mylar bits are the bees knees.  My two favorite riding horse bits that I just can’t part with are Mylars. For anyone not familiar these bits are shaped to fit in a horses mouth more comfortably that most traditional bits.  They can really help a sensitive horse find that calm and relaxed place.  Pricy, but it would not surprise me if these bits last a few generations of horses, plus they have a high resale value on ebay.

[Does’ Leap]

Kristan picked up a Kimberwick bit at a tack sale for $5.  I drove him in it today with no leverage and he did great.  In a few days I will add some leverage and see how he does.

Geoff, I’m not sure Donn saw your question but when I started driving my mare in a Liverpool she would often throw her head back trying to escape the bit.  Instead of a nice, relaxed head position, she would have her head high.  As soon as be put her in a broken snaffle, she relaxed and was a different horse.

George

[grey]

Remember that when you hook straight on, the bit is only acting on the mouth. The tongue, the bars, the corners of the lips perhaps. Depends on the shape of the horse’s mouth, the tightness of the headstall, the shape of the mouthpiece.

When you add leverage, you act on the mouth (tongue, bars, corners of the lips), the chin groove (via the curb chain or curb strap) and also on the poll. Three locations on the head rather than just one. That can sometimes make a horse feel a little claustrophobic.

The difference between hooking straight on and dropping down one notch on the shanks is HUGE. Not just in amplification, but in the number of different pressure points that are contacted by the bridle.

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Geoff,  All equines come equipped to resist pressure, but we teach them to yield.  That is the basics of turning with the bit.  Horses tend to adapt to this a little easier than mules, and mules a little easier than the donkey.  Any way if I was struggling to teach him to stop, he would just run off with the leverage added.  But when I reverted to a quieter voice and gentler touch I could get him to stop.  It just took a lot of work.  When he started to  back up, it was one inch at a time.  Any leverage would make him go forward (pushing into pressure); again with time and patience he has learned the meaning of the commands and works better every time I take him out.      He was never afraid,  he was just telling me this is how I do things.

 

 

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