bunk or arch – whats the best?

[mink]

i notice in the photo gallery pics that alot of people , myself included use an arch to pull wood . carl seems to use the bunk . any ideas as to the pluses or draw backs to either? mink

[Carl Russell]

Don’t get me going……:eek:

Just kidding.:D

To quote an article I wrote about using sleds, ” It isn’t about skidding wood, it’s about working horses in the woods”.

I love working horse in the woods because there are so many challenges, and there are so many options to use to overcome those challenges.

I use a sled when I think it will give me the advantage I need, and I use a cart when I see that to be the best solution.

I know that doesn’t exactly answer your question, but in a way it does.

Too tired now to be specific about the pros and cons of each, but I’m sure others can pitch in.

Carl

[lancek]

I think what Carl means is they is a right tool for every job the trick is knowing which one works best for the job your doing ! Of course in snow the sled is the best way to use your horses too there best advantage because the sled moves better in snow! But they are times that a scoot will work better in warm weather than a cart and thats in muddy conditions! The least resistance the horse’s encounter the better they will be able to work!

[Does’ Leap]

Mink:

here’s a link to some discussion on this issue: http://www.draftanimalpower.com/showthread.php?t=2575&highlight=other+logging+tools

George

[Carl Russell]

Thanks George for searching that out….. it was beyond my reduced intelligence last night.

There are several reasons why I think a sled is a good option regardless of season.
1. Distance of skid…. the load can be increased significantly because ground resistance is reduced significantly.
2. The increased load can be handled and maneuvered safely, and more concisely.
3. The angle of draft is much lower, allowing the bio-mechanical lifting action of the horse in motion to be used more efficiently by the animals.
4. Downhill skidding, much larger loads can be moved, reducing number of trips, and taking more advantage of gravity.

I use the cart for these reasons.
1. Short skids, light and often.
2. Maneuverability, moving logs right from the stump to the landing.
3. Teamster safety and convenience…. tools on board, secure location to drive from.
4. Less handling of logs.
5. Although the angle of draft is higher, the mechanism of the hitch creates a pendulum effect, or more accurately it adds a buffer to the draft that can over-ride the reduced efficiency of the higher draft.

I truly see neither as superior over the other….. just more appropriate for different applications..

What may escape the eye though is the fact that within the paradigm that most of us grew up in, the wheel and associated technologies occupy an assumed position of authority. This does not actually diminish the functionality of the sled, whose physical logic is rooted in ancient success as well.

It is discussions like this that allow us to learn new, and relearn old knowledge.

Carl

[mink]

can one assume that a tree would pull about the same either on a cart or single bunk with both having the front off the ground? i guess in my mind i thought the sled type rigs would pull harder on the bare ground. mink

[Carl Russell]

mink;23638 wrote:

can one assume that a tree would pull about the same either on a cart or single bunk with both having the front off the ground? i guess in my mind i thought the sled type rigs would pull harder on the bare ground. mink

Rarely does a cart get a log as high of the ground as one on a sled, but when it does, although the wheels roll easier over the ground, the angle of draft is higher. The higher hitch means that the horses can’t apply as much mechanical advantage against the load as they can with a lower hitch such as on the sled.

So while the wheels have less resistance than the runners, the applied energy is different. Functionally there is little difference as the physics of the cart allows for mechanical advantage that the horse loses due to the high hitch.

The difference really comes down to the application of the item to the work at hand. If you are skidding wood 200 feet to the landing, the handling of all that wood makes no sense. However, if you are skidding 1000 feet, then going with 150 BF per hitch doesn’t make sense.

Also to make hitches bigger with a cart, you often must pull tree length, which may allow the end of the log to come high off the ground, but it also allows a lot of tree to drag a long way back disrupting any draft advantage. With a sled handling log length there can be very little ground contact, which seriously reduces resistance.

If you have very large logs that drag almost entirely on the ground even with the highest cart, then putting them on the bunk makes a lot of sense.

This is obviously on frozen ground, but there was no way these two were going to skid this over the terrain even with a cart, so we rolled it on with the horses and it went out with ease.

The point is there is very little that you can’t do with cart alone….. But there are times when using a sled makes a lot of sense. Just having one, with an understanding of how to use it, gives a level of proficiency that make more work possible.

Carl

[lancek]

Hey Carl that one didn’t go out with too much ease isn’t that the one that broke the upright off? LOL:D

[mink]

oh oh lance did you gain a point or lose one;) mink

[Carl Russell]

lancek;23656 wrote:

Hey Carl that one didn’t go out with too much ease isn’t that the one that broke the upright off? LOL:D

Wellllll….. it went on pretty easy, but it went off the other side even easier, taking part of the sled with it….:eek:

But once it was on again it went out easier than if it had been skidded on the ground.:p

Carl

[TaylorJohnson]

Do any of you guys have a pic of some steal sleds like that ? Taylor Johnson

[lancek]

MInk I’m always getting demerit points! And Carl you have a real good point there, thats a big log so those 4×4 uprights are not the strongest in the world ! What was the footage on that log 250 feet? And Taylor there was a post on here of some guy in Alaska that had some steel ones that he pulled behind a cat! My question is how well a scoot would work in this rocky ground around here? We dont get much snow around here but have a lot of hard pack rock would the advantage of the lower draft still exist or would the four cart be better?

[Carl Russell]

TaylorJohnson;23678 wrote:

Do any of you guys have a pic of some steal sleds like that ? Taylor Johnson

The problem with steel is that the sled will tend to be too ridged because of the welded joins, which will have some negative effect of the function of the sled. Also the welds will have to withstand a lot of pressure.

What was the footage on that log 250 feet?

This tree measured 41″ across the butt, 31″ across the top, and 10′ long, scaling about 325 bf, weighing around 3500#.

Carl

[near horse]

I know log weights can vary but is 10# per bf a good loose estimate? Carl, I see you scaled at about 325bf and thought weight was at 3500#.

[mitchmaine]

they used to scale hardwood pulp at 5100 lbs. per cord. a cord of wood is about 600′. so 350mbf would weigh in at 2975 lb. at that rate, and when you figure the pulp mills are trying to screw you anyways, sounds like carls estimate is pretty close.

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