cattle grieving

[Tim Harrigan]

I am not sure what you are suggesting. Avoid these types of observations here? Or initiate some type of educational effort?

[Robert MoonShadow]

Patrick; I think that when you start to worry and/or cater to the ‘what ifs’ of the ones you refer to, they’ve already won, to a degree. I truly believe that animals grieve, and have wide range of emotions… that if we choose to deny that as a ‘human-only’ capability, we are being elitist. But then, it does have some degree of influence on how I deal w/ my animals – but doesn’t control my way of doing things. If those w/ too much time & money on their hands choose to be ‘bleeding hearts’ types, I really don’t care – I’m going to do what I want. I don’t look over my shoulder, nor do I give them the influence in my life they seem to crave. I guess it’s an attitude thing; I’m doing nothing morally wrong with my animals, so I don’t fear others’ judgement of my actions… nor even accept it. I have never accepted PETA (or similar types) as an authority figure – nor will I. I also don’t consider what the folks in Zimbabwe might think, either.
As for people asking “stupid” questions & such: my understanding of the words ‘stupid’ and ‘ignorant’ –> ignorant means you don’t know; stupid means you won’t learn. If anyone asks any ‘ignorant’ questions, I view it as an opportunity to teach; if they arguefy, they’re not ignorant – they’re being stupid. If no one is willing to teach, then this forum wouldn’t even exist… and I’m very glad & grateful that the experienced ones here choose to take the efforts to teach an ignorant one like myself >>> and I hope to repay that effort by not being stupid.

[sanhestar]

Patrick,

what may also happen, when livestock owners accept that their animals are not as simple in their feelings as they thought (or would want them to be) is that livestock keeping, selling, slaughtering would be done with more consideration.

Granted, I can afford this point of view as I only slaughter for our needs but it’s a heart breaking decision every time – because I know, have observed that f.e. the mother of a slaughtered lamb, kid (sheep and goats) will grieve.

But I have also observed that this grieve will be overcome with next years lambs – all prey animals accept that some of them have to serve as food for predators.

But if I know that I will cause grieve, I have a chance to say “thank you” to the animals that have to go through this emotional experience, develop more respect for them and therefore change my view of the world and – maybe, in the process, when I live this view open for others – the view of a few more people, as well.

Another example: I will never again buy an animal that doesn’t “speak” to me when I’m on the lookout. Been there, done that – didn’t do any participants any good.

Not to say that it was always easy with the ones where the “connection” was made – live is there to learn and make new experiences – but it’s more gratifying to work/keep an animal that wants to be around you and that you have a connection with.

And I try to do the same with animals we sell.

[Vicki]

I’m wise enough not to presume to speak for Patrick, but I think I understand that he is sounding a warning, a warning I will take to heart. Patrick brings up important and relevant issues.
First, he states that the behaviors we observe can be understood as instincual responses not having the same sentient, spiritual significance as the human emotion of grief. Historically, Americans have believed that humans are distinct from animals, having value, moral capacity, and emotions that animals do not.
Then, he reminds us that activists with worldviews that are, in the West, historically “new” and probably different from ours, are shaping the public discussion and regulatory policies of animal welfare and agriculture. He (and I) are concerned that such observations are exploited for activist agendas that we would probably not support, and that they can be because of ignorance of the larger pop culture which has lost context of understanding animal stewardship, animal agriculture, and their necessity in ecology and human survival.
I don’t think Patrick wants us to stop discussing our observations, but if he means let’s be aware of exploitation therefore wise and discreet in describing them, and discern underlying value systems in discussions, I take his point.
We who raise, work, and eat animals should be observing them, learning about them, and taking responsibility for the stewardship we practice.
I’m humbled to look an animal in the eye and know I can decide to kill it. I believe I will answer to a higher authority–even higher than HSUS! (that’s a little brevity to lighten the discussion) for how I treat it.
Those of us who raise, work, or eat animals that we look in the eye know that is in our best interest to keep them the healthiest and “happiest” possible. We work with their natures and instincts and not against them. This is a logic and a truth the general public must hear if we want animal draft and husbandry to be allowed to continue.
OK I’m putting on the kevlar now. . .

[dominiquer60]

Vicki take the Kevlar off, you don’t need it, what you need to do is spread some of your common sense to others in your community, you have some good points. Patrick and Robert I can agree with you both also, and Sanhestar I can see your point. I don’t think that there is any question that animals have emotions, I just don’t see their brains working in the same emotional capacity as ours. I don’t see it as we are superior or elite, however since we do use our brains and have such a large impact on our surrounding environment because of them, I see humans as having more responsibilities than our animal counterparts. Given the same stimulus a chicken, a horse and a human will all react somewhat differently and may share a similar emotion to the stimulus but it varies in complexity.

The chicken funeral for example, I wasn’t there, but being the big chicken dork that I am, if you take the emotion out of it, this is what sounds like happened. They are curious creatures and there is something about fresh soil that they cannot resist, it is a find, the rooster was defining his territory and claiming that area. The old hens all had a scratch first because they are higher on the pecking order, they didn’t find much and they moved on. I am not certain that they are able to grasp such a concept as grief like larger animals, this would partly explain their sometimes cannibalistic behavior. I love watching my chickens and if you do give them human like emotional complexities you can have one heck of a good barnyard soap opera. But I keep those thoughts in my head because I know in the chickens world things are much more simple than we tend to make them, sometimes I am envious. A good book that I read on animal behavior was Animals in Translation by Dr. Temple Grandin, it gives some good insight to how animals react to their environment, especially for folks with limited experience with animals, but I recommend it to everyone.

I don’t like animal rights groups, the ones that I know of seem to lack the knowledge of reality. Vicki you said it best that we need to be careful of what we say and how it may be perceived and used against us. Robert I agree that we should not let certain groups effect us or treat them as authority, but we should realize that they threaten to influence our potential customers or small farm supporters. I am in favor of educating folks before these types of organizations influence them first. My main objective of education is to teach folks good husbandry or to create a better educated consumer even if they are not my customers, I want more people understanding how they are voting for certain farming practices with every purchase.

“when livestock owners accept that their animals are not as simple in their feelings as they thought (or would want them to be)” Sanhestar brings up a good point that there are a number of owners that are not considerate of their animals. In contrast there are many ignorant non livestock owners that put too many human complexities on animal emotion/behavior, this is the wrong way to go also. I think that the challenges that we face as a group is to be considerate and compassionate with our animals and their care and to do this better than the uncompassionate and also to show the anthropomorphizers that livestock do not need to be mollycoddled to lead content and purposeful lives.

[Vicki]

Thea, thanks for sharing your cattle observations here and sparking this good discussion, and thanks to you all who have great contributions on this thread.

Ducks are very “smart” and do learn many habits, and I have seen “grieving” behavior from mine. I bought a young bull calf that cried unconsolably for its mother until it went hoarse for many days, and he never seemd to bond with any other cattle.

Thanks for your encouragement to “spread my common sense”, Domanique. I’m on a speakers bureau for animal ag in response to my state being targeted by HSUS for sweeping regulation, with long-term goal to eliminate it altogether.

[bivol]

wow, this thread has really evolved!

now, we all know and most of us like dogs, and consider them emotional animals. i don’t disagree.
when my dog was nearing his end we were spending every day at the veterinarian. i was carrying him because he couldn’t walk.
one day he lied there on the table weakened, and was taking infusion.
a man with a rottweiler entered the room. that dog had, i was told, cancer, and his owner brought him to put him down.
the rottweiler lied on the desk and a student gave the injection. suddenly my dog, lifeless before, got up, and started to whine, and wanted me to get him out of the room, but i couldn’t, because he was still connected to the infusion. when i managed to have him uncoupled from the infusion(i couldn’t do it myself because he clung on me, had to yell at the staff) we got out, and my dog calmed down. after a while.
my guess, how i know my dog, is that he knew the other dog was being put down, and he didn’t want me doing the same.
my dog died some days later naturally, at our apartmant.

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