Co-op logging job business organization

[Mark Cowdrey]

Great discussion with good info both cautionary and positive.
Thanks to all.
Mark

[lancek]

well that is one thing nice about mo you can have up to five employs on a job without workmen’s comp ! They are pretty progressive in that way, but they are 30 years behind in the way they manage forest down here!

[TaylorJohnson]

I can see the points and understand the reason behind the law but it comes down to if we are free as Americans to inter into contract with one another with out government interference . If both parties understand the risk
it should be up to them. Like a lot of other things it started out with good intentions and ended with powerful people with money manipulating the law to favor them and shut out smaller competitors. I am free and do not want the government to tell me what I have to do . I take this risk every day by my self , my comp does not cover me if I get hurt . When I cut my arm I did not get one cent from them yet I pay them every year. I am taking that risk any way so it is hard for me to worry about the collective good/risk when I have taken the risk as an individual for years… no one worries about my good / risk . The problem they have is that if I have ambitions or goals that might inter-fear with them in any way …. well then they pull out the care about the collective good of the worker when in reality I think they could care less or at least very little. It comes back to if we are free or not , can we chose or not.
This is something as self employed people that should be on our list of things to change because at this point contractual law means nothing in this country . Lawyers/politicians have perverted the system to suite who pays for there lake homes and posh lives. There is no caring just a money power grab we all have to realize this , it is not political just a fact . If we do not have freedom to run our businesses and lives as we see fit we are all done… well I suppose we can all click along for a few more years like we are going but we will not and can not grow. The fact is that there are only so many people that are going to do what it takes to start a business and be self employed the rest want to show up and do a job . This is fine it takes all kinds but as it is now we can not operate in this fashion. Russia and China have more freedom than we do in the since of business today…. just think about that . We better get a handle on this and fast. Boys there is only so much room for horse logger demos and what not , we have to be able to really function if we can not we will not no matter how bad we want to. We can discuss all the technique in the world and if we do not have the freedom do implement it into real situations then it does not matter. Taylor Johnson

[lancek]

Taylors right about what hes saying and there again the only way of doing this is by getting a collation up to show we have numbers ! And when I say numbers I mean large ones so that would mean teaming up with other organisations that have a like minded ideas,

[LStone]

yeah no fooling. I was self-employed in communications for several years. Same issues with work and labor. Gone are the days you could look another person in the eye and shake hands to agree on a result. It is considered naive and ruthless individuals with no character will “run a person through” for a lack of luck or misfortune, despite intent. It is all about the dollars and whoever or however they can be accumulated. No matter the cost. Mark I am interested in where this thread goes too.

[Mark Cowdrey]

I am wondering whether insurance rules are supervised on the state or federal level. This would bear on the issue of consistency.
As pointed out previously, one of the major roots of our dilemma is insurance and insurance is gunshy because everybody sues everybody. I believe that it is not up to you whether to sue, it is your insurance company that decides, which if you think about it is a little contradictory, an endless game of one-up-manship. So if Bob is working on Pete’s job and has agreed that he is responsible for his own well being and safety, and gets hurt, his (Bob’s) health insurance company is going to sue Pete’s liability insurance company (I think) whether Bob wants them to or not.

What if there was a new model. What if Bob & Pete were insured by the same outfit? Say one sponsored by the Small Farm Conservancy? That way one company is not trying to beat the other. Or is that not the real issue. Is this the stuff Lynn & CO. are talking about?
As Carl sort of mentioned, there are a bunch of folks in central-ish NE who are ready to go if this could be figured out.

I am not discounting Scott’s thoughtful experience based suggestions (thank you), I think there is real, current, value there. Yet there are those who seem to have had different outcomes (or been told different stories by their ins.agents/lawyers) so that there is a bit of a pall of doubt over how useful such a set-up would be if push came to shove.

I am only looking or universal clarity, is that really too much to ask?

Mark

PS I thought I put the icon at the end, I don’t know how it got in the header??

[Scott G]

@Mark Cowdrey 24376 wrote:

I am wondering whether insurance rules are supervised on the state or federal level. This would bear on the issue of consistency.

Mark, workcomp is governed and administered by the individual States and I believe mandated by the Feds. Most liability and all auto policies are governed by the States. This is why consistency becomes such an issue…

[Rick Alger]

I did some research on WC when Scott was trying to get a logger’s group started. I found that WC is indeed state governed and the rules do vary from state to state.

However over 35 states use a company called NCCI to establish categories and calculculate risk by category for each state.

Animal powered loggers are now in the same category as cable skidder crews in states that use NCCI.

I spoke with man from the NH Insurance Commission who in turn talked with NCCI about a special animal loggers category pooled across many states. NCCI is not opposed to this idea, but they need hard data regarding payrolls and accident claims.

This is where I stopped because interest in the logger’s group dried up. I am now trying to dig up the name of the man I talked to at the NH Ins. Com. in case anyone wants to pursue this.

[Carl Russell]

As individuals we can all have our own Liability and try to act like cooperating contractors, and even if we all have our own disability insurance, if there is a claim against one person’s disability policy, then that company is going to scrutinize the cooperative agreement to determine if the person was acting independently or as an employee. If an employee, then there will be a WC settlement.

There are many interlocking components to what I see as a possible solution. An entity that promotes a certain approach to forestland management using animal-power, could provide a service to LO’s that focused on forest improvement. Have this entity develop contracts with owners, and “hire” operators for each job. There would have to be some manner of demonstrating consistency between operators.

I know Jason and HHFF have been using a good model for years, but I think it might be worth trying to develop a for-profit model so that it could operate as an employer, carrying WC, Liability, and several other administrative costs. I have been at this for quite a while, and while I have cooperated with several folks in my area over the years, I have to say that we have not really solved the issue of pooling resources and increasing viability of animal-powered forestry.

Jason has proven that this kind of model can support better forestry and better marketing potential. I know we would need several people working as foresters, and marketing forest products, but it is my pipe dream.

Carl

[Author]

Posts