Coming by when called by name

[LStone]

I am looking for some suggestions here. Or some words of encouragement as you see fit. Do you ALWAYS carry a whip with you? I always keep a whip with me while driving but almost never while working in the woods. In a training situation, I try to give my animals the opportunity to perform based upon my verbal suggestion first, while suggesting the discipline visually by carrying a whip. If I do not get the desired compliance then I discipline. I want to get to a point though where I do not feel like I have to carry it with me for us (horse and human) be effective. Is this a reasonable and attainable goal as a horseman? Do I have to continue to imagine hearing unspoken comments from onlookers such as”Man you have done a great job with your horses. Look how well behaved they are for that whip”. Or is that just the cost of doing well in this sport?

An example Scenario I have been working on for quite a while is this. My guys will without fail meet me at the gate when I go over to feed them. Or at least if I wait for them they will come to greet me shortly upon entering the paddock (no big surprise there). So always when I enter the paddock I socialize with them at the gate while moving to the barn door next to the halter chains that I use for grooming or harnessing etc. I continue to socialize with them there at the barn door as well. At that point they are easily manageable to be tied for whatever reason. When it isn’t feeding time and they are off away from the gates and they show no interest in meeting me over say, grazing (expected as well).

1. So I go to the barn wall and call for the desired animal by name with no whip in hand.

2. The animal doesn’t come up or at least none of them have so far.

3. I go fetch them with whip in hand. I then generally get a refusal to lead with me and have to convince the horse that he wants to walk with me back to the wall using the whip to influence his decision. Generally takes just a little tap, but a tap none the less.

It seems to me this is teaching them more about complying with my will to lead them where I want them to go over their will to stay put. Rather than to come when called. Am I making a mistake somewhere, possibly by not having whip in hand when I call them up? Ultimately I want them to respond and come when called by name in any given situation. My horses are young and I know time and repetitions are necessary and I am putting in the work toward this outcome I think.

Should I just change their names to something they like? I know they can read because I feed them in their stalls which are labeled with their names and they report to them without encouragement or error twice a day to eat.

thanks,

Larry

[Donn Hewes]

It will be interesting to see what you get as answers to some of these questions. I have a couple thoughts to start out with.

I know alot of people expect their horses to come when called, or wish they would. My horses and mules will be by the gate some times and other times not. If they have been in harness several days straight they can pretty well quess what today will bring. My rule is no one walks away as I approach with a halter. Don’t even turn your butt toward me. A new horse is taught that this is not exceptable and they stop doing it. I don’t feed any grain so it takes away one of their reasons for wanting to come in. They are ussually out on excellent pasture. Why would any horse in their right mind want to give that up to go plowing.

As for a whip, they will have their place and can be useful in certain training situations, but if you carry it with you all the time that is how I will see you and relate to you. Here comes the guy with the whip. Let me try to explain what I mean. I could see the whip being a barrier between you and them being relaxed and comfortable. Alert, relaxed and comfortable should be one of your goals for them and you, as you are working. Good question, I expect you will get afew more answers. Donn

[karl t pfister]

Hay Donn good answer to Larry’s good question , a lot of people will say the relation begins on the ground with no ropes or halters just you body language talking to the horse . All these guys have books and dvds and say it way better than I can but Lynn Miller .Doc Hammil [spelling ]?, Buck Brannaman , Who is a rider but what he says about relating to the horse while on foot is amazing . What Donn was saying about no horse turns and says ” I ‘m not interseted in what the best horse in the herd is saying , cause they all relate to him , That is Us , We have to be the best leader,the one who knows what is going on ,lets them feel safe ,appreciated, etc . This is what these natural horseman are saying as I understand them . An other is Chris Irwin and he drives also , you have to be the horse the others want to be with . If , when one gets a horse following you around no halter everywhere , anywhere its amazing what you can get them to do when you have a telephone line {rein, rope & halter }attached to them . my 2 cents worth goes to encouraging us to go these master horseman . thanks karl

[Rod]

I am a lucky novice I guess because when we bought out two Halfingers a year ago I knew nothing about them or how to use them. But they are older and experienced and patient with me. I am amazed at them sometimes the stuff they understand and do for me.

What I have been doing lately is having them walk with me from the night pasture back to their stalls with no lead rope or halters on. I go to the gate whistle and they come running from where ever they are. I open the gate and we walk to to the barn side by side a few hundred feet away, no fences, plenty of turns and distractions and they even push the barn yard gate open to enter if it’s unlatched which it usually is. All I ever have done with these boys is done gentle and no abuse or threats. I try to get them to trust being with me as a good experience. If I am in a bad mood I stay away from them and do not react harshly when they make a mistake or act up. In this year our relationship has grown and it gets easier as time goes by.

I do feed the a small cupful of Vit. , mineral mix and some joint herbs when they get on the barn at night and I don’t doubt that this is why they are so compliant in doing this trick each morning.

[Lingodog13]

I have to admit that having my horses come when called by name just makes me happy. My three drafts spend their time out in a big pasture with up to 30saddle horses of all ages. I used to have to saddle a wrangle horse and run in the whole bunch to get my team, but a few years back I bought an older mare who changed all that. I do give a scant handful of oats in the barn as a reward for coming in, but Duchess would come at a lope.
Over the winter I kept the team together in a smaller field with a young percheron mare and called all three names when I needed the team. The old gelding couldn’t stand to be left behind, and the colt just got used to coming when called and standing in her stall for grain (again, less than a handful). The old mare is now dead, but the other drafts still come in when I call. I think it’s probably the reward and the habit combined.
None of my saddle horses come at all.

[Jean]

My Percheron, Bess, will come up from the field when I whistle and call her name. If I want her to come with speed I cluck to her and she starts running. The others will follow, the saddle horse reluctantly. Of course she will never do this if the Vet or Farrier are here to see.

Some time I call because it it feeding time, other times it is just to see her run.

Jean

[Rod44]

LStone – you were kidding when you said your horses can read weren’t you?? If you were serious, try changing which stalls their names are over and see if they switch stalls. 🙂

[tsigmon]

Should I just change their names to something they like? I know they can read because I feed them in their stalls which are labeled with their names and they report to them without encouragement or error twice a day to eat.

thanks,

Larry

Please …..please tell us you are kidding.

[Donn Hewes]

Working with mules has taught me something very useful that I believe has been good for horses as well. That is be very careful about what you choose to make a rule. Only make something a rule if you really need it to be a rule. That way you won’t spend hours, days or, weeks teaching and enforcing your new rule that wasn’t actually needed anyway. In my mind if I make it a rule, it is black and white; you shall, we will, they must.

On our farm horses and mules are being lead to every corner of the farm as the nightly turn out changes to different paddocks. I expect them to stand while haltered, stand as a group once on the lead ropes, wait while gates are opened. This is all on lead ropes, and it is great training for driving and work. here is a picture of six horses and mules being lead. Now what would this picture be like if I had a whip. Yes, I could do it, but it wouldn’t make it easier to catch, lead, or work them.

[Carl Russell]

Larry, I also use a whip, actually I usually cut a marshmallow stick, and I never use it to correct a behavior. If your animals are doing the wrong thing, that is the behavior they are learning. The trick is to get them to do what you want then reward, instead of doing what you don’t want then correcting. Does that make sense?

I use the marshmallow stick to encourage a horse to move, or try harder, but in conjunction with the command, “Ted!”, or “step up”, etc. Combining the physical motivation with the verbal reinforces the verbal and soon they will perform at the verbal command as prescibed.

I do not believe that a horse will see you carrying the whip and be able to understand that you intend to use it to enforce your will. Using a whip to drive cattle is a bit different. They learn to watch the whip, and will learn that if they move appropriately then they won’t get it. Even there they are not reacting to protect themselves from discipline, just learning to follow a physically demonstrated command, that at the beginning is performed in combination with the hit of the lash.

As far as them coming to you. I don’t think they are coming to you when fed, because they see you as leader. They are allowing you to socialize with them while they wait to be fed. That is why when you go to them when they are preoccupied they are indifferent.

It takes practice, but try going to the field with more intension. Don’t try to shy them toward you. You should be trying to get their attention. They should have some reason to watch you. Be loud and fast. Go work on the fence, or split some wood there. Let them see you in your motivated, prominent, confident state. When they come over to show interest in you, then reward them with your attention, but shoe them away before they get bored with you.

When you get them showing interest in you, they will come even if they standing in 6″ of new grass.

A good rule is that when halter and lead are on the horse, THEY FOLLOW. You should not be waiting to see if they will need to be reminded by the whip. I would never use a whip like that anyway. If you get them to understand your position as the initiator, then they will follow.

I have used my pastures like big round pens, driving the horses away from me, and then rewarding them be reducing my demeanor and greeting them when they decide that they would rather follow me than be chased by me.

I ride my bike to the pasture and whistle about 100 feet from the gate. Sometimes in the dark, I will call, or whistle again as I am parking the bike. By the time I get to the gate they are either waiting for me, or on their way. Another pasture I walk to, and as I walk down the hill I let out a shrill whistle. Often they are 1/4 mile away. By the time I get there, here they come.

Several times over the years my horses have followed a moose through the fence and ended up miles away. They let me approach, even as they are still intoxicated with their freedom, put halters on all, sometimes as many as four horses, grab leads, and head back for home. This is not some trick reinforced by corrections. It is just the basic rules. I lead, you follow, ‘sall good!

I can relate to what you are saying. When I first started out, I was humbled by these animals. My body language and demeanor exuded this. I would ask them to do something, and they could hear the hesitancy, and would not perform suitably. When I learned to tell them what I wanted, and to present myself with more confidence then they were more confident and more interested in following me.

We all have our situations where we are confident, and comfortable. Often when learning to work with horses we feel uncertain, and question ourselves. This is not a leadership skill. Sometimes it is very difficult to act like the leader when we don’t feel like one. That is why it is important to do things with your horses, or around your horses, that you know you can do with confidence and certainty.

It is also good, although hard to do, to practice a confident swagger, or try to project confidence beyond your actual true feeling. Practice getting really big, and pushy, as a put on, acting, so that when the horses respond positively, you can quickly become the easy going quiet teamster you want to be. The fact is they need to know that you can be both cooperative and demanding, but they need to be able to choose between the two Larry’s. So even though it isn’t in your nature, it will do you a lot of good to show them that guy, but be waiting in the wings when they come looking for nice Larry.

Good luck,
Carl

[LStone]

Thinking…
I am thankful for the advice received on this and I encourage more. I seem to be covering a lot of territory with my animals because I think I am. I work with them daily in some way, shape, or form and I try to work the three of them three days a week. I want to point out that I consider that there is a difference in working with them and working them. I am not a full time logger or farmer and I have posted more background on my situation in various other posts here.

Kidding? I think not. They know where their grain is and in certain instances I am sure they have and will again end up in another stall. But I think you all knew that. So I don’t think changing nameplates will really have any effect on them. Just an attempt at humor.

For me to lead my three orangutans together as shown in the picture on your post Donn and have everything be as calm as they appear. I would not need a whip but only a gun, and I wouldn’t be going anywhere fast. My hat is off to you, your methods, and your example. Over time I hope for similar results.

I guess My question is mainly of expectations rather than application. Agreed that people have those rules in place, and I with my young’uns am smack in the midst of establishing rules and teaching horses that I expect them to be followed. I guess I could re-think whether I want to die on that hill or not.

Carl I think I probably end up using it a little more liberally as a correction. Not that I want to use it at all and as I hope all understand that it is to that end that I hope to achieve.

Confidence- Maybe you are right Carl point taken, but in my opinion I think I display a lot of confidence when I am with them and I cannot think how I could be more confident with them. Now sure I have had failures and mistakes but on the ground in situations that I am familiar with and that they should know how to act better such as with me in the pasture, paddock, barn, or woods etc. I think I am past being apprehensive generally. To be completely honest with myself and the forum it is when I start to over analyze “”new” situations such as the incident in the hayfield I posted on in July where I get more aware of a lack of confidence. I am familiar with the horses, but they are young and I am aware of the inconsistancy that they are capable of displaying. Having said that though I have driven them on a 2 lane 55mph road and in a parade this summer both of those were new situations for us that I didn’t hold up as well as the animals did I am happy to say. But I’ll do better every time and not lose respect for those situations.

… Still thinking, and very appreciative.

Larry

[Carl Russell]

Larry, I realized after I wrote all that, that I was making broad statements, assertions into areas that may not be my place to comment.

But I’ll be honest with you, you clearly described to me a situation where the horses were definitely showing you that they are not attracted to your energy, ie, not coming to you except for food, and not following you easily on a lead rope.

My comments were only given to encourage you to read those signs, and try to respond differently than you have been. I also realize that you are thinking, learning, and growing, and that you are not stuck, I was just compelled to respond.

[near horse]

Hey Carl,

Nice picture – are those your logging shorts? You’re one tough cookie!:)

[LStone]

No Offense taken Carl. I am dead serious about my “thinking” comment. Nice touch reinforcing it in with the picture though. I can assure everyone that there are no pictures in existance of me leading all three of mine at the same time. Believe me I am being mildly sarcastic but I am aware that everything in my situation is dynamic and I take into account their ages and my experience daily. I also take to heart this advice from all who care give it.

Larry

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Larry, I think you have gotten some excellent feed back already, and I know a person can easily get more feed back than they want or need at one time. I get the sense that you are really thinking about what is said. One little thing struck me from your earlier comments. In reference to trying to lead all three, you said you wouldn’t be going anywhere fast. I think I know what you mean; they would be going in three directions, one starts while one stops, etc. But I general I find folks sometime rush their horses a little. I too will use a stick or something if I need to give a poke to someone, but I find it is pretty infrequent. Young animals are often thinking ten times more than they need to, but to some extent you just need to let them think. Walking slow can be incredibly frustrating, but in my experience a horse or a mule will speed up of their own accord if I give them a little time and space. I started a horse on a mowing machine the other day. The only thing she did wrong all day was she walked a little slow for the first half hour. I had to encourage her a little just to keep the knife moving. But I kept it low and soft, and let her figure it out. She is a big horse and in no time she was ready to walk up with anyone here. I would much rather have that for the first time on a mower than a horse that wants to take off. Don’t be afraid to let them go slow.

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