Coming by when called by name

[Scott G]

Coming in late on this one, but my thoughts for what they are worth. Having horses trained to come when you call is a standard that needs to be achieved. If they know they are going to experience a reward during initial training it is pretty easy if they are not showing a dominant attitude over you. In my background, a majority of which was backcountry use, having a difficult to catch string was not an option. Would usuallly picket out one dominant riding horse, hang a bell on the dominant mare (hence the term “bell mare”) and turn them loose. Now when I say backcountry I mean it. Some camps I worked were ~30miles from the nearest trail head; chasing down your horses was not an attractive option in the middle of a million acres without a fence in site. So at a minimum, being able to approach a horse without you getting nothing but a spectacular view of the south end isn’t much fun…

As far as whips, I seldom carry them as they are a royal pain to keep with you. The exception, as I mentioned on a previous thread, is for training and reinforcement. Whip is a misnomer as I NEVER beat them with it. If things are going badly one quick, brisk tap is usually all it takes. More often it is used for a poke to obtain pressure to get things moving in the direction I want to go. All of that said, I would have to respectfully disagree with Carl, at least for most of the horses I’ve worked with. If a short whip, quirt, or switch has been used with that animal before, they know what it is. Regardless if it is tucked through my belt loop and into my back pocket where they can see it slightly over my shoulder, or I cut an aspen or willow switch if things aren’t going well. They know that I have it and I receive a whole new level of attention, even without that switch/quirt/whip touching them. The response I give them always suits the situation depending on their behavior. From just having it to poking for pressure to a light tap to a not so light tap. But as I said, I rarely even have one with me as for 98% of the issues don’t require it.

Take care,
Scott

[Scott G]

Yeah Joel, waking up and hearing nothin’ but quiet is not a good thing when you’re packing. I’ve definitely had to go hunting horses many a morning even with the best laid plans. Guess that’s why they called us wranglers…..

[Carl Russell]

Scott G;10722 wrote:

….. I would have to respectfully disagree with Carl, at least for most of the horses I’ve worked with. If a short whip, quirt, or switch has been used with that animal before, they know what it is. Regardless if it is tucked through my belt loop and into my back pocket where they can see it slightly over my shoulder, or I cut an aspen or willow switch if things aren’t going well. They know that I have it and I receive a whole new level of attention, even without that switch/quirt/whip touching them. …

I just have a different interpretation. I have seen the same response from an animal when I have a whip, or stick. I attribute it more to the animal reading the resolve, and/or confidence that is projected by me when I have gotten to the point where I feel that I need to get more attention from the animal. I am willing to bet ( because I have been practicing it) that if the same resolve is projected without the whip, the response will be just as satisfactory. The difference is that we often need to have props that lead us to believe, and give us confidence, that we are now more capable of getting the result that we desire.

I’m not saying that having a whip doesn’t work, just a different way of seeing it. I try to see it the way the horse really sees it. The point is that eventually the whip, why ever it is effective, should be removed from the situation. To do this effectively, the teamster must remain an attractive leader to the horse. If the horse is truly focusing on the whip, then the whip will be perpetually necessary, and we all know that is not the case. Somewhere in there the teamster and the horse come to an understanding, and truly effective communication is never a one-way activity. The teamster learns what that horse needs to see them as an effective leader, and learns how to project it, even if it is subconscious.

Carl

[jen judkins]

I’ve read this thread over a couple of times and have appreciated the feedback and experiences presented here. I wasn’t going to add to the thread, but I had some thoughts this morning as I was doing my AM chores.

I had to leave early today for an early case…so I was out in the barn around 5 am. In the heat of the summer the horses are generally in the barn by then and stay put til dark, so I throw them a few flakes of hay to keep them busy during the day. But it was quite cool last night and the boys were still out to pasture…I’m sure delighted by the lack of bugs. Anyway, I hiked out to the far pasture with my coffee and the dogs to find them all laying flat out sleeping. I approached, the dogs announcing my arrival and sat on a rock to drink my coffee nearby. No one immediately got up, but they were aware of my presence and one by one they arose and came over to greet me. Once my coffee was drained I got up to head back to the house. They of course followed me…my alpha gelding right at my shoulder.

This phenomenom is not about leadership, but about rapport. Rapport differs slightly from respect, but is equally important. As teamsters, we need both. Respect comes from presenting an idea and then providing enough reinforcement (light or not) to get the idea done, consistently. Use a stick or not.

Rapport comes from daily interaction with our horses, some of which is undemanding. Fixing fences, filling water troughs, picking up manure…these are all opportunitues to spend undemanding time with your horses. But its not like they are free to do what they want. When I am mucking stalls, I insist my horses ‘back up’ or step over’ to allow me room. I’m not asking much, but I make sure they comply. This process allows them to understand that I am asking a question and they have the ability to ‘answer’ the question with a response that will revert the situation back to the status quo…to peace. When I feed, everyone knows the order, and where they need to be to get their share. There is no drama and no fighting…they comply or go hungry.

When I come to retrieve a horse for a ride or work, I don’t expect them to come running from the pasture to greet me, but I do expect them to turn and face me when I approach them for haltering.

Rapport breeds respect, as long as the leadership, as others have pointed out, is consistent and confident. But you can’t have good leadership without rapport first.

Mark Rashid teaches this…consistency leads to dependability, which leads to trust, which leads to peace.

Its a pretty simple equation.

[LStone]

It has been a little while and I have been pondering the questions quite a bit more. I appreciate all the advice here. I am readng “Horses Never Lie” now Jen. I always get time to start a book and never time to finish though. At least that is how I’ve been lately.

So what I think I got out of this is that I have attainable and realistic goals here regarding the whip and comming by name. That I should “lose” the whip more. I can attain these results through more maturatey on the part of the horses; while I focus on assertiveness, confidence, and deliberate and consistant clearity of commands. I think it was Donn who mentioned that people tend to rush their animals, so I would have to throw in consideration for a good dose of patience also. Thanks all or the homework guys. We’ll make a good team at some point I’m sure

LStone

[LStone]

Update. Over the winter I have persisted at getting them to come when called by name. Last night my big gelding came when I called him! I have mentioned before, that I think because of my personality I have to make an effort to “mellow” out to a horse friendly mode. Well last night I think I actually felt myself downshift to yet another gear and it worked. Am I nuts? I called as usual to the three of my biguns and Roy took a positive step toward me, so I concentrated on only him. Then I felt the switch and I think I saw it in his eyes, and he walked over to me. What a good feeling. Now on to the others!

[jen judkins]

Nice, Larry! Its hard as ‘goal oriented’ as we are to let go of the ‘agenda’ and simply connect to the horse. But it feels good, doesn’t it? 😉

[Carl Russell]

Larry, this is the difficulty in this artistic process. People really cannot describe some of these things, we have to feel them. Once we feel the changes, then we can develop the body memory to change our habits. But until we actually feel it, it is only a vague concept. And sometimes this type of behavior change doesn’t come when you are trying hard, rather it will sneak up on you, making it even harder to realize how you got there. But a big part of it in my mind is being present, and in my estimation that is what you described. You felt yourself disassociating from all “agendas”, or other distractions that you may normally carry around with you. Watch out it can be addicting:D, “he says 24 years later”.

I often describe these break-throughs like water eddying behind a dam. For a while there is still some feeling of movement as the normal flow is only slightly modified, but as more water builds up there is a stagnation that occurs, and then there are little breaks and dribbles here and there, until one area begins to flow more and more, and then there is a flush of new energy as the dam decays and everything moves on downstream.

Carl

[LStone]

Zactly. So then I am not nuts. Jen it did feel great, and what was even more gratifying to me than his moving toward me, was the actual “switching” sensation of the connection we made. It was as vivid to me as switching on a lightbulb or grabbing a lower gear while driving. Way better than calling my dog over to me, and then again very different for some reason. It seems I didn’t have to work this hard with any of my dogs.

Jen my understanding on the goal orientation and agendas is that when we gotta go and take them with us, the initial task of having them come when called, and having no need for the “bribery” or treat rewards becomes a valid goal and is a true agenda of the human. But did I let it go or simply find a way to convince him to adopt mine? I am having trouble understanding that part of it. I think when the agenda of the animal and the human merge together, a team partnership begins. Am I wrong here? Doesn’t an agenda have to exist to get anything accomplished? I will re-read the thread on that subject and post my Q’s on it.

I will say though that I never “felt” that “connection” as I did the other night. I think it was all about me having eye contact with him that particular instant the connection was made. I noticed, and it was remarkable. He got it! While driving, riding, or otherwise working with them, direct eye contact doesn’t have the opportunity to present itself very much. He was uncontrolled in the heard, where he wanted to be, and he chose being with me only because I called him over. Not because I went to him or had a peppermint or handfull of grain etc.

Thanks for the confidence guys. Carl your dam analogy is spot on. Addicting? yes. but I never thought I was doing anything artsy. I always approached this as a skill. Maybe the wrong approach and another thread entirely. But alas… Nobody came over to me when called last night. So I toil on. Practice, practice. I get a lot of practice.

have a great weekend.

Larry

[Carl Russell]

LStone;17010 wrote:

Zactly. So then I am not nuts.

….. But did I let it go or simply find a way to convince him to adopt mine? I am having trouble understanding that part of it. I think when the agenda of the animal and the human merge together, a team partnership begins. Am I wrong here? Doesn’t an agenda have to exist to get anything accomplished? I will re-read the thread on that subject and post my Q’s on it.

….

Larry try thinking about it like you entered a place where your energy became attractive to him. You are right that an agenda does become necessary, like a plan, but if the agenda is the focus a lot of times the energy can get so intense that it isn’t attractive to the animal, and then the agenda cannot be met. If the energy is the focus, the connection, then the agenda has a foundation.

Carl

[near horse]

I’d like to go back to one of Donn’s earlier comments regarding not allowing a horse/mule to turn away from him. What do you do to change this? Run them off? If they aren’t haltered or caught, it seems you don’t have many options.

As a new teamster, I think one of the great challenges is being mentally prepared to respond “appropriately” to various undesirable behaviors without sending out signals of awareness/concern to the animals. I imagine that much of it comes with repetition over time. I’m sure some of you may be tiring of the same old issues but it seems pretty evident that this relationship is the real foundation of sound horsemanship. All the other stuff will come along much easier with animals that respect you. So I will continue to pry/question and try to understand the best way to foster the team/teamster relationship. Thanks for your patience.

Also, I understand what you’re saying Larry – whatever you did, you want to be able to repeat it and reinforce it. Just be careful about wanting to repeat the past success adding a heightened level of anxiousness to your demeanor that can then change the outcome. In other words, don’t overthink it! (that said after I’m asking for more info – go figure)

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