Compost turner ideas?

[Robert MoonShadow]

I’ve been sifting some of my compost to use to start my seedlings, after having the landlord turn my piles with his backhoe. My piles are about 8’H x 6′ x 6′. When I move to my own land, I can either make a bunch of small piles & hand turn them or figure out a way to turn the big piles –> which I’d prefer, because of the severe winters where I’ll be moving to in nothern Idaho, I like the extreme heat produced in these big piles. I don’t want to own a tractor, nor rely on borrowing/renting one for this >>> so man- or horse- power ideas are what I’m asking for. I’ve seen commercial compost-turners (way too much $$ & the gas engine), and even a homemade one from a converted combine (gas engine, again). The only things I can think of would be to convert an old buckrake into a scoop (that’d take a lot of room to operate) or maybe an old hay-grapple & trolley system (if it could even handle the weight or the grapples would grab onto the stuff). Anyone out there have engineering ideas or perhaps have something they use or a different technique for making large quantities of compost? Maybe something with an electric motor or ground-driven hydraulics?

So far, the only idea is from my hillbilly neighbor = “Heck, I’ve got some leftover dynamite – we’ll just blow ‘er up & you can scoop it back in a pile” 😮

Um, no.
As an ex-con, me using explosives {for any purpose} is probably not a wise idea, ya think? :rolleyes:

[Carl Russell]

If you consider having your piles inside a structure to help keep them warm during the winter, using pigs to turn the piles can be pretty effective.

Eric and Anne Nordell have been using this method for many years with great success.

Carl

[dominiquer60]

A covered structure also helps prevent any weather from effecting the pile, could be a benefit, but a bad thing if you have little rain and want the pile moistened naturally. Chickens can also have some effect on a pile, it is nice to see them stirring a pile, but their impact is generally superficial. If I recall correctly the Nordell’s use chickens on compost when the pigs are working a different pile, they even have a catwalk over the pig pen to avoid the pigs snacking on hens.

We have had our chickens in loose on a winter bedding pack with the pigs with no visible problems. I think the two can co-exist in the same area in the right conditions, for us it was that the hens could duck under the hot wire to get away, and the pigs had some acreage to rut around, as long as they don’t get a taste of chicken they don’t seem to seek it out. They can both be good for stirring compost as long as the system is set up to take advantage of their natural tendencies to scratch and rut.

Erika

[near horse]

You hate to have to build a covered structure for composting. Covered storage is usually at a premium in the northern clmates (never enough of it).

[Carl Russell]

That is true about the structure, but in order to turn the compost effectively using something other than fossil fuel machines, pigs for example, the material needs to be in a confined area, so that it doesn’t get spread thin across the barn yard.

The structure can be built into existing buildings such as cordoning off portions of free stall, or barn basements, or unused box stalls.

Also the structure will provide a container so material can be stacked deep enough to maintain heat, as well as providing insulation against the winter climate that can stifle biological activity.

This strategy can ad some cost, but a building can be amortized much further into the future than a tractor, especially if you believe that the fuel to run it will become limited.

My personal plan is to build a manure containment structure. Three sided foundation into the bank, with an insulated removable wall for unloading. Above the basement will be a greenhouse structure on the southern end, and a pig house on the northern end. There will be two compartments, one for accumulating ingredients, and one for working. Pigs will only have access to the working side, by gated alley. Moisture will be added, but using straw for bedding, and an urine drain below the stables will capture a lot. Also being a closed structure will capture some moisture, which will be transferred directly upstairs to the green house, where co2 and nitrogen in the air will be available to the plants. I know that all the details are rough, but that’s a rough plan.

This is just an example of how certain things need to be rethunk when trying to continue practices into the future that have been developed in a fossil fuel economy.

Carl

[CharlyBonifaz]

http://www.awionline.org/farm/compost.html
http://www.richsoil.com/pigs/
just been curious:)
elke

[Gabe Ayers]

I have seen drawings of a system of ledges on three different levels. The top being larger than the second and the third smaller than the second. The manure was piled and layered with other residue on the top, some watering as needed was applied and after so many days the material has heated and reduced volume somewhat and was turned to the lower level with oxen and a crude plow like device – one pass at a time. The plow was reversible and a few passes back and forth moved and turned the manure to the next lower level. There it sat and composted further, again some water added if needed and then turned again to the next level to a finish product using gravity and a crude plow to move the material to the edge and lower level. There was obviously lots of hand work involved, collection and gathering to the start of the process and carrying away to the fields and gardens from the bottom.
This process was in India I think. Using gravity and animal power to move the material sounds appropriate. Of course the pitch fork is still the primary tool…

[Robert MoonShadow]

Jason; I kinda like that idea: I started thinking on it, and came up with perhaps using a forecart & backblade w/ team, to “snowplow” it off the edge to the level below (perhaps needing several passes, a layer at a time). Haven’t ironed out the details yet… anyone see any possible hangups? Anyone use one (like the one sold by Pioneer)? I’m wondering how deep of a layer it’ll dig down & move, since it’s not hydraulic, against the packed/settled half-done compost. Maybe it can be loosened up with an old hay dump-rake? (Must be about 40 of them laying around this area). I’m assuming it partly depends on the strength/size of the team, but am wondering how efficient it (the backblade) might be. Having seen nothing but pictures of them, I wonder about adapting a bale lifter? Isn’t there a horse-drawn ground-operated type? I’m planning on the pigs already {had actually forgotten about them for compost ’til you folks reminded me = thank you!}, but converting new land into produce production takes a lot of compost (especially the first couple of years), as you probably already know. Any other ideas, please?
Elke ~ I really enjoyed those links you posted: thanks!
Jason – I’m assuming what you described was done in windrows & not piles? Any idea about how deep/wide they were?

[near horse]

At our local Eco compost site, I’ve noticed that they have pipe (kind of like drain tile or plastic culvert maybe 8″ dia) running under the pile from one end to the other for helping with aeration (?). I don’t know if they turn those piles at all – never see a commercial turner there or if they actualy pump air through the pipes but the piles always seem to be actively putting off heat even during cold weather. Has anyone else seen this type of setup?

While this wouldn’t be something for making compost to “apply” to your fields or use for planting medium, I read a permaculture text that mentioned what I’d call trench composting – digging a trench, ditch, or what have you (garden plot) where you were going to add you finished compost and putting the raw stuff in the trench, cover and let it do its thing. Certainly much slower and has limitations but definitelt low input.

Robert – depending on what’s in your compost and how wet the initial material is could make a huge difference in how heavy and how much of a “bite” a blade could get on it. For example, straw bedding can be brutal and make mats that loader buckets struggle with.

I like the ideas using gravity as much as possible. What about builing the pile ontop of a series of platforms arranged in a grid (like a tic-tac-toe grid). Each “cell” of the grid can hinge allowing it to be tilted and dump its contents into the next “cell”. You could use animal power w/ a block and tackle setup .

Or could you design a sort of “low angle” version of a beaverslide used to put up loose hay?

Obviousl, I’m not an engineer or designer. Better stick w/ the pigs!

[dominiquer60]

Geoff, I have seen something like what you describe with pipes in a pile. There is a septic company near where I used to live, every fall they would set up a pipe or a series of pipes that lead directly to their shop. Then they collect as much horse manure and discarded bedding as they can find, they pile it up good and high and just let it sit all winter. They insulate the pipe leading to their shop and enjoy heat that only cost them the hauling of manure. In the spring they turn it a couple times and get the pipes out, then sell it to a farmer as compost. It seems to be a reasonable system, maybe that is not happening in the system that you described, but your post reminded me of this shop heating setup.

Erika

[jen judkins]

http://www.o2compost.com/

I built a manure shed this past summer and love it! Its got a cement floor and back wall and 3 10 x 10 ‘stalls’ with removable dividers on the remaining 3sides. It has a roof, but the walls are only 4 foot tall or so. My plan was to install the aerating system so they would not have to be turned, but I ran out of money for that. So I admit, I am turning mine with the tractor at this point, but I believe the aerating system will speed the composting to the point where stirring is not absolutely necessary. So I’ll add it when I can. I would also make the walls alittle higher if I were to do it again. Cement was wicked expensive last summer due to diesel prices, so I skimped alittle.

Another thought. I have left piles in my pasture to compost (in areas where I know I’m gonna need better soil composition) and the horses do a great job of turning it. Only problem is keeping it in a ‘pile’…they tend to flatten it in short order. I then drag the area (easily done with Peanut) and plant seed…works great.

BTW, Carl, I really liked your plan for a manure shed/pig pen/greenhouse!

[Crabapple Farm]

Two old manure-moving technologies come to mind.
The first is a horse-drawn manure fork. I don’t know how widespread they were, I’ve only come across a couple. A cross between a pitchfolk and a slip scoop. The Fork part is beefy – three or four prongs forged out of one inch square stock coming to points. The fork is in a frame, so that it can flip over, and it is the frame hitched to the animals. I have one I found at an antique shop with a catch and release, I’ve seen another with a handle that you hold on to and adjust the digging angle, and then flip. If you’ve seen an old slip scoop, it’s pretty similar, just with a fork instead.
Using such a tool, you can just drag manure horizontally, so you can’t easily build a large pile, but you can turn a windrow.
Another thing I’ve seen pictures of is the “Rapier Muck Shifter,” apparently made in Britain around world war two. I saw it in “Humus and the Farmer” by Friend Sykes (I think it was reprinted in SFJ a few years back). Basically a grapple hook on a boom. His was engine driven, but it could be done with ropes and pulleys. If you wanted to go in for mechanical tinkering.
-Tevis

[jen judkins]

Tevis got me thinking…if you kept the windrow pretty short, why couldn’t you turn it with a small york rake. I have one that I use on my arena and had planned to use it to spread a pile of compost in one of my paddocks this spring using Peanut power.

I was also talking to Ted Russell tonight and I mentioned your question. I figured if anyone had figured out how to turn a manure pile with a horse, he would. But it turns out he turns his windrows with a tractor bucket:rolleyes:. BUT he did mention this old trick. Plant stakes in the manure pile, so that when it needs a boost, you pull a few out, allowing air into the pile:o..well, it could work!

Anyhoo…good question!

[Robert MoonShadow]

Tevis: Any photos of these horse-drawn manue forks? I’m wondering if your “slip scoop” is the same or similar to what we have around here, known as a “fresno”?
Jen ~ What’s a “york rake” please?

[jen judkins]

Try this: http://www.wikco.com/images/YorkTA1B.jpg

Sometimes known as a landscaping rake.

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