Consistant Runaway While Leading

[Anthony]

Since moving my 2 suffolks out onto grass last week my one horse, Sunny, has taken off each morning on the way to the barn, leaving me bewildered as to what has gotten into him. There is nothing out of the ordinary that I can see. I eased them onto the grass, filling their bellies with hay and leaving them out for a few hours for a few days. I don’t feed any grain, so while the new ‘candy’ might be exciting him a little bit, I need to keep him in line.

He has done this in the past a few times when leading him back to the barn, but it has been because I have demanded something/put excess pressure on him and made him uncomfortable, though these situations should also not end in him running away.

The 2 apprentices here this year have both taken a try at leading him about a month ago when we were still feeding hay and within a few steps out of the paddock he gave a little squeal and took off. To me he seems to be one who needs constant, consistant attention (at least more than my other horse) as well as clear boundaries. He will often try to push boundaries, or at least check if they are there, even with things that are well established. With me he usually finds out again where the boundary is and is happy to stay within it, but with new apprentices he can begin to set his own new boundaries with them.

I am looking for ideas to work with him. I don’t need to know exactly what is going on, but I do need him to look to me and my apprentices as a leader. I have kept him on a shorter lead as well as lead him directly by the halter, getting his attention when I sense signs of unease of anxiety, but then he decides he is done and takes off. There is another gate before the barn which has stopped him, and then I have run him into a paddock and worked him as if in a roundpen, to which he is responsive. I have also worked him as if in a roundpen in his pasture paddock before leading him out, which seemed to go well until we got out. In the paddock we got to the point where he would follow me around like a puppy dog behind the shoulder, as well as turn his entire body towards me and step towards me after running him around. A few hundred feet out of the paddock and he took off. I got out in front of him and reestablished communication, and he was happy to follow me away from the barn (where his best bud had been lead back to already by someone else) back to the pasture more or less loose. We walked back and forth towards the barn and back towards the pasture a few times, all the while him following very well and very attentive on a very loose line. Next day, he seemed attentive in the paddock and I decided to try to give him more rope, thinking he might be nervous when lead close and tight. Same thing, he takes off shortly after leaving the paddock.

He is a 7 year old suffolk gelding who I have been working with for over 3 years. He is good in the barn when brushing and harnessing and good when working, and usually good when leading. Any ideas?

-Anthony

[Jay]

Anthony,
I am just starting mine out on grass – about 1/2 hour AM and PM for four of days now and they seem to be reacting in similar ways to what you are describing- though not running away as I work with them constantly to continue to pay attention to me, to me to, to me, to me,… I do so not by hanging on or even shaking the halter though I sometimes do that, but by slowing my body down and if they don’t slow down as well, they get a quick backwards kick in the shins from me. Their response is instantaneous. It seems to be an instinct to back away from being kicked by another horse. They very quickly back off. When stopped, if I lean backwards, I expect them to back up a step. I am always paying attention to my body language – When I start forward, they see and respond to the slightest movement of my body starting to lean forward (or backward). If they are not paying appropriate attention to my leading, I will often stop and ask them to back as described above, continuing backwards a step or two at a time till I see them chew, often an indication of “Oh, I guess he really does mean business, I guess I’d better really pay attention”.
Your description of the horse looking for the limits is great and what I often find with mine also. They seem to be continually looking for the limits – “are they still there? are they still the same? Oh, good.” 5 seconds later “are they still there? are they still the same? Oh, good.” 5 seconds later…… Horses really are pushers of the limits and seem to need to be assured that the limits are still there and the same many more times than we would think that anyone would need to so be assured. The horses I have who push the limits like that seem to be my best workers. When that drive to push gets harnessed they can be really productive. Jay

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Anthony, It seems like you have done a good job of transitioning to pasture. To me his antics have little to do with the grass, other than he feels good. When holding a horse by the halter or very short, there is not much room left to “teach” with. In a sense he is already to close and in your space. That way when he leaves he is just going “away”. And there is very little we can do to stop a horse that is going “away”. My two cents: Start by leading him single. I know this makes an extra chore, but some one else can lead the other horse. (teaching the apprentices how to effectively lead a horse). Now make him stay behind you. Often we were taught to not let them get their head past us, but for him, he should not get his nose past you. Hold him with two feet of rope. The reason for the rope is so he has room to not crowd you. The rope should be loose between you. Use your peripheral vision (like what Jay said) to ensure he stays where he belongs. Walk briskly like a person that knows where they are going. I usually have loop of rope in my hand and can easily use this to correct him by swinging it back against his chest as gentle reminder to stay where he belongs, and up in front of his face as a stronger reminder.

Not a regular trip to pasture, but as a training exercise, you should be able to turn when ever you want in any direction and he should be following you. He can only do this if he is behind you watching where you are going. You should be able to stop abruptly and he should stop and still be behind you.

Folks often grumble about how much time it takes to train horses, but in reality it does need to. In watching an old Buck Brannaman video, he mentions “after the initial training the only refreshers the horses need is leading with quality”. It is a great phrase. good Luck, Donn

[Does’ Leap]

Hi Anthony:

Sounds like to you have the right message (i.e. I am the leader), but perhaps need a louder voice. I have never had a need for a chain shank (see attached image), but I think it is warranted in this situation. I think this tool would increase your “voice” until your horse gets the message that he can’t run away.

I suggest someone lead your other horse while you lead Sunny. Ideally you can anticipate when he is going to take off and remind him to stick with you with a few sharp tugs. Make sure your chain shank is set up so that there is a release of pressure when you are not applying it. In addition to the chain shank, you can also start off with a driving whip or long twitch that you can wave in front of him as well if he is pushing ahead (bonking him in the nose might also be warranted). If anticipation fails, get ready to hold on with two hands to stop him.

Ideally you can break this cycle with these tools to the point where you don’t need to rely on them. If you can prevent him running away with a second person and these aids, try with just you making sure Sunny is next to you when you lead two horses. Eventually you should be able to lose the chain shank and twitch. I would, however, have him in a rope halter at all times if you don’t already.

Like Jay, I have a horse just like Sunny – uber-dominant, smart, hard-working, and always testing his boundaries. He keeps me sharp. Good luck with him and keep us posted.

George

• This reply was modified 10 years, 6 months ago by Does' Leap.

Attachments:

You must be logged in to view attached files.

[Anthony]

Thanks for the suggestions Jay and Donn. This keeping their nose at your shoulder is important to keep in touch with and reinforce, as well as leaving proper room so you each have your space and can communicate well. I am often ‘keeping them on their toes’ and checking in as you suggested, Jay, by slowing or quickening my pace and seeing how they adjust and insisting on stopping behind me when I stop, but will take another closer look. I think when something erupts I have the tendency to seek a little more ‘control’, hence the short rope and leading by the halter (behind me and at an arms length, though I realized this actually gives me less ‘contact’ with the horse after he tore away none the less. It is not so much that I will have any sort of physical restraint, but rather a way to say ‘hey!’ and call them back to attention.)

I also throw in the turning exercise Donn mentinoed every couple mornings especially with this horse. He is excellent at it; usually as we approach the barn we’ll turn away shortly before and make a couple loops and figure eights and he is right behind me in wide and tight turns, both directions.

I generally walk briskly and confidently, but have found it hard to find true confidence lately in this situation. The first time I did as always and feel like his runaway caught me quite off guard. The next morning had a little anxious tenor to it with more stopping and starting. The third, after we had worked well in the pen, was actually confident and off he went.

Regarding the ‘lick and chew’, sometimes I wonder if Sunny knows about it! Maybe just in relation to Kate, who will lick and chew when I walk past the barn and smile, but in all of these situations it is something I look for besides what I have asked for as a sign of understanding and sometimes I move ahead prior to getting it as sometimes we’ve worked for a bit at the same thing and I feel he might turn sour on it. I wonder if he understands but is uncomfortable still?

It is fun to think about working in these situations, and your suggestions are just what I am beginning the apprentices on and having them focus their attention on with the other, ‘easier’ horse. Maybe there will be an insight after we move through this episode to help them with leading Sunny as well.

Regarding apprentices, we have been leading, grooming, harnessing, hitching, but not driving yet and am trying to figure out when and how to go for it. It has been 6 or 7 weeks. Part of it is now finding the time as we are a good ways into our busy season. I am hesitant partially because they are not so proficient in their relationships leading (non-existant with Sunny), and loose in the pasture the horse they have been leading, Kate, is docile to the point where they have great trouble chasing her away/asking her to do something other than what she is comfortable with. Given we go well over safety, how does this relationship sound to you to begin driving? Of course there is a possibility of poor habits coming in, but perhaps it can reinforce their relationship otherwise? I am not in any rush however.

The last 2 mornings we have made it into the barn without any trouble. I had been leading just Sunny and one of the apprentices led the other horse, Kate for the past week. This was something that I had not done in the past, so I decided to go back to something familiar to be comfortable, in a sense to narrow down some variables (separation anxiety in a somewhat unfamiliar place). I ended up being extra precautious and walking the entire way backwards to keep an whole 2 eyes on Sunny, which ended up taking half an hour instead of 6 or 7 minutes but we made it. Most of the way he seemed un easy, ears back and not relaxed, a little tense.

This morning I lead them both in fairly normally without trouble, Sunny still being a little tense but settling down. Looser lead, behind me the whole time. We’ll see what tomorrow brings.

ps. Jay, Sunny spent a little time at your place in his youth prior to being swapped for a ‘Charlie’ horse to Floyd Murphy in NH.

-Anthony

[Anthony]

George – ah yes! When I first got Sunny, his past caretaker sent me along with a lead rope with chain at the end for just this reason, to heighten my voice in certain situations with him. I used it for a while and then switched it out, but it seems to warrant reintroduction. Thanks for the reminder. When I was switching to a regular lead rope and thought I could use it in a certain situation all I had to do was get it out and he shaped right up! A gentle reminder when his instinct is kicking for whatever reason. I think it will also help me hold onto him when he does try to take off, as the nylon web halter doesn’t offer much. I can keep up with him a little and try to turn him but he gets going so quick he isn’t listening at that point.

The rope halter and twitch/whip are also great thoughts to help with communication. Things have been simpler lately and my horse training ‘toolbox’ has been relegated to a faraway corner, time to dust some things off.

-Anthony

[Carl Russell]

This is eerie… I have not had mine on grass, but the other day both horses decided to just walk off when I was un harnessing…. Maybe the planets are out of alignment….

Anyway, Anthony, I am unclear how the horse gets away from you.

Also, as much as we want to share experience with apprentice/interns/novices, I have seen significant deterioration in communication with my horses after letting them work with novices.

I would not be apologetic, but would just have them do something completely different for a while. Stay away from the horses altogether for a week or two, and just get back on solid ground with them yourself.

What is happening is dangerous and unacceptable, and no matter what expectations you or your apprentices have, this horse has great potential for you into the future, and you need to protect that. I am not blaming the novices, just pointing out that you may need to eliminate them from the equation until you get the leadership back.

I also want to point out how our confidence can become undermined faster than we are prepared for if something unpredictable happens in the presence of people whom we are not expecting to have difficulty in front of.

Good luck, Carl

[grey]

With my horses, too, discipline can start to slip when I let novices handle them for any length of time. There are infinite, infinitesimal ways in which we constantly reinforce “place” and “security” with our own animals. Other people don’t react the same way that we do, and the horses can either become insecure or just start following their own agenda. Some tools and devices (whip, lead chain, rope halter) can help bridge the communication gap between the novices and the horses, if those novices must continue to handle the horses. In any event, this horse’s newfound habit of running away has already reached the level of “vice” and must be squashed ASAP. In my experience, each successful runaway adds another 30 consecutive days of “non-running away” that will be required to cure this habit and make him trustworthy again. He has already gotten up to needing close watching till mid-August! He’s running away in hand now – next will be during hitching.

[Donn Hewes]

I think constantly putting your horses in the hands of beginners can teach you (the teamster) a lot. About you, how you teach teamsters, your horses, and how they are trained and handled.

My horses and mules spend more time being worked and handled by other people than they do by me on an annual basis. These are all beginning teamsters with varying levels of skill and experience. I can’t wait to start to teach the next person to lead horses. Today, Daniel, who has been working with horses for about two months is just learning to lead my animals as a group. We are currently leading a one year old mule, his mother – a large Percheron mare, a year and a half old mule (without her mother – she is with her foal) a ten year old mule, and a tough 15 year old boss mare. He leads them all while I watch from close by. It takes a lot of practice to make this look easy. You need the means to communicate to those close by, but also those that are farther away from you. It also helps prepares you, and your horses for working in groups.

I used to worry about all the time my animals spend being handled and driven by all these people. There are definitely days when some horse or team has a tough day of teaching. But I have control of the teaching as long as they are my animals. I measure the effect of all this handling when I do work my animals myself. They are as responsive and well manored for me as I can hope for. I get all the control and movement that I expect.

I am not suggesting this is the solution to Anthony’s questions. Like Carl, I suggested that Anthony take this animal in hand and start to teach it to lead. I am just commenting on the fact that it is possible to teach leading to beginning teamsters, and have them work your stock. Donn

[grey]

If I had others handling my horses on a more regular basis, I’m sure that my horses would eventually tire of testing every new person. If you can work your horses through this insecurity and teach them that they don’t need to interrogate every new handler – teach them to be more trusting – you’ve got horses that are worth their weight in gold. Mine aren’t there and likely never will be. I sure admire a team like that.

[Carl Russell]

It is indeed an interesting component of this, and worthwhile for Anthony to consider.

I agree with Donn, having novices work with my horses has given me insight into my work with my own horses that I would not have found in my own little world.

As Grey pointed out, there are many little things that we do with our horses on a moment by moment basis that provide comfort and security that support our leadership. Sometimes that is just as simple as the animals are more comfortable giving leadership to someone they are accustomed to, or it could be a sense of confidence that we exude in situations where we ourselves are more comfortable, or it can also be related to continual and disciplined execution of specific aspects of physical communication….

I was first exposed to this many years ago when an old man came to float the teeth on what I considered to be a very nervous mare. I was so concerned that she would not cooperate that I had hands on her halter….. when I saw him looking at her, and showing her what he wanted to do, touching her nose…. I saw her visibly relax… it almost seemed that her hair laid in a different direction….

I also became aware of the situation with a novice when I gave him the lead to hold a horse loose in a field for me to remove his shoes. A horse that I had handled since 3 month of age, reared and wheeled as I lifted his foot, yanking the lead from the novice, and moving about 20 yards away. I approached him, got the lead, handed it back to the novice, telling him to be more assertive… again the same thing…. I then took the lead, told the novice to stand out of the field, told the horse to stand untied, and removed all four shoes.

I am not of the mind that horse “test” boundaries. I see it more from a standpoint of when they do not see boundaries reinforced, they either become uncertain and look for security in their own terms, or they fall back on other previous habits developed when leadership was lacking.

One thing I will say is that I think many people see running away as a fear response, and to a certain degree it is, but running is more accurately the power response that horses possess. Many times they can, and do, run because something startled them, but the reason they run is because they know that is how they can protect themselves through the power they innately possess. In this way I see a horse that is running as one that is looking for security that it feels is lacking right where it is.

Rather than trying to prevent a horse from running, trying to establish boundaries against it, I focus on those aspects of my own body language and impetus that help the horse to find my company most comfortable. Putting high expectations on a horse is paramount, but it is the reward for appropriate behavior that will teach the horse, and it will also encourage the animal to seek guidance from the teamster.

It is really important that the horse knows that they are in the presence of a person who is extremely comfortable with the situation, one who will be able to provide the calm that the animal desires. If they interpret body language to suggest that the person is on uncertain footing, or that the calm is intermittent, or that there is no clear definition between force and calm, expectation and reward , pressure and release, then they will be inclined toward their own security system.

Having novices work my horses has helped me to recognize where and how I do these things, or where I may not be doing them. It has also helped me to refine this communication so that I can recover quickly what has been lost. It also has helped me to see that even a horse that is out of communication condition can be inclined to quickly pick up the line from us if we are clear about these things.

Sometimes, a horse will give us very little room to actually provide reward, and that is where we need to step back and look for ground where we can redevelop that leadership. In the course of farm work, and busy days that can seem impossible. I know several folks who just keep working with a situation because of all of the schedule challenges, and never seem to get back to fundamentals. All I can say is that it will be time extremely well spent….. and could be a very important learning experience for the apprentices.

I am currently working with a very challenging mare that was previously allowed many vices. I am also working with an apprentice. What I have decided to do is something that Donn recently shared with me, and that is to let him work with all of my horses on a very fundamental basis, one that I know I can recover quickly, getting halters on them in the field, leading them to the barn, grooming, watering, picking feet, giving him a chance to experiment with basic leadership exercises. When it comes to working this mare I am sharing with him the successes and challenges as we move through the day, showing him what I am seeing, and what I am trying to do to compensate, and where I see the opportunities for reward, and how that reward is, or is not, changing behavior.

I also plan to spend more time with the more experienced horses, but she is in need of the basic work in a way that she deserves more of my attention than I can compromise. It leaves very little room for the intern to get more hands on working experienced horses, but we have agreed that there is invaluable lessons in this manner that may not be available if everything was perfect…

Anyway, Anthony it is difficult to divine from this distance exactly what you are dealing with, but give yourself the flexibility to step back from the situation to evaluate some of these things as they relate to your normal manner of communication, and use it as an opportunity to learn about yourself instead of just being a teacher to others.

Carl

[Anthony]

I don’t have much time now for a full update/response, but just wanted to say thanks to all your contributions.

I am leading Kate in alone, then going back for Sunny, allowing me to focus on each which is great. I am using the chain shank with Sunny, which he seems to understand. In trying to help it be something that lets him feel more secure, I’ve been working with a gentle, pulsing tension on the lead rope as we walk which seems to be helpful.

As always, as Carl remarked in his last sentence, these horses have provided me another opportunity to learn about myself and work through something that they are perceptive and reactive to. I have to the outer tools, now I just need to get myself really together to find the confidence that has been a little shaken.

thanks
-Anthony

[shoffman]

Not that I subscribe to the planetary alignment theory, but one of our mares who has never exhibited that behavior before walked away from the other teamster at Essex while he was harnessing around May 18th. Just saying.
I have also found this to be a very useful thread, thanks to everyone for posting.
Scott
Essex Farm

[Author]

Posts