Csf

[Scott G]

Does anybody have any other ideas for products or what a CSF might look like?

Would there be any benefit to following an Agroforestry concept for combined products, value, and marketability with a CSA/CSF mutant?

Would we be better off to partner with a traditional CSA to market our sustainably produced products.

Questions for all…

[Carl Russell]

Scott, are you thinking of individual operations, or as a community marketing initiative?

Carl

[Gabe Ayers]

Since this is all a new marketing initiative it would seem appropriate to do everything we can to market our products anyway possible.

A combination with existing CSA is proven to work for us for some products such as mushrooms and we have a market for botanicals (ginseng, etc.) with an international exporter, who could serve all areas of the country that have access to such products.

I think the core of the initiative should be a “green” certification process that assures the consumer that they are buying products that come from sustainable cultural practices. We certainly off our DRAFTWOOD program for that capacity.

Everything we are already doing is available on the HHFF site under DRAFTWOOD and is a work in progress, so any adaptations for local settings is possible.

For instance – I am certain that DW certified structural lumber would be a very marketable product, although the Canadian government subsidizes the production of FSC certified building materials from that country. They are very cheap compared to ours or the prices available for conventionally sourced material so that will be an important issue to keep in mind.

A combination of local regional and national marketing is possible here, maybe even international.

This presents very exciting possibilities from this work for all of us.

Thanks guys.

~

[blue80]

I like the idea of being vertically integrated to provide a wide measure of products/services.

The csf could operate on a credit system, to be utilised however the consumer sees fit whenever they have wants or needs, much the same as the “points” sytems on many credit cards.

Maybe a few retirees/woodworkers could make finished products/gifts such as wooden toys/horses/picture frames/furniture
Some unfinished T&G hardwood flooring or trim
Some RS lumber for DIYers
An idyllic picnic/fishing area available for special occasions
etc. etc.

I am also big on the work, low on the marketing/sales/PR side….

Kevin

[Scott G]

@Carl Russell 14347 wrote:

Scott, are you thinking of individual operations, or as a community marketing initiative?

Carl

All of the above, Carl. Could be individual operation based or a local marketing co-op model. Strictly a wide-open brainstorming session at this point.

It would be nice to get more professional craftsmen/artisians, like Kevin, to weigh in on this as well.

The agroforestry component intrigues me …

[Gabe Ayers]

It seems that an important development for our markets should be considering the fact that to practice restorative style forestry there are a lot of low grade trees harvested.

So coming up with a way to add value to low grade material is important. One of the products we process is fencing boards from low grade oak. Particularly white oak species that are straight enough to saw a few fencing boards out of and sound enough.

A low grade oak log is one with less than two clear faces. So if you have a market for tie logs which are oak with no clear faces or two or less in shorter lengths that is good. But for the smaller diameter but longer oak logs, say 12′ and longer may make good fencing boards. We keep the straight low grade oak with a small end diameter under 12 inches for fencing boards and saw them to order from the pile we keep around the landing or at our sort yard which is usually back at the farm where they are brought and dumped from the truck to await processing when the market shows up.

An important consideration is turning raw logs into a salable product with as little investment as possible. When we have an end use that doesn’t require kiln drying this makes the product cheaper for us to produce and easier to sell. This is the case with fencing boards, black locust decking and firewood.

Another factor very relevant to this winters weather, is the fact that folks down here have burnt much more firewood than they are used to so the demand for firewood is pretty steady these days. This is again a low grade material that can be processed with little outside cash expense and only gets better with time as it drys to make better fuel.

Another point is that slab wood makes good firewood, particularly if anyone is cooking with wood. It is understood that historically all the labor cost of operating a modern sawmill are paid for by the value of the by products of lumber production, i.e. bark mulch, sawdust, slabs/chips. This may not be the case for the more labor intensive smaller processing that we do, but the value of the by products is important and figures into the overall value of the services we provide.

Anybody else out there burning any firewood these days???

[Guy]

I’m late getting into this conversation, but appreciate the concept. A thought I’ve been mulling over for a while might be an alternative CSF model. Rather than providing a finished product to the CSF customer (boards, furniture, etc.) what if the CSF provided forest management?
For example 40 landowners agree to longterm contracts with one “biological woodsman” (to borrow from Jason) and pay a set amount per year. In return the woodsman is responsible for marking property lines, doing TSI work, controlling invasives and when necessary doing commercial harvests. The landowner keeps proceeds from the harvests, so the woodsman doesn’t have to be worried about timber bidding, markets etc.
I realize that this may resemble scenarios that some of you already work in. Maybe this is appealing because not all woodsmen are able to invest in sawmills, wood shops, marketing and the other costs involved in selling a finished product. Personally I’m much better off with a paint gun or chainsaw in my hands than a sander or drill.

[Scott G]

I like that idea, Guy. Some folks are already following that model in the form of forest management co-ops.

Google “forest co-ops” and you’ll find quite a few.

[Gabe Ayers]

We compete with a local Forest Co-op for access to private forestland. So they are our competition in some ways. We rejected the co-op when we started HHFF and went with what we consider “ecological capitalism” meaning that those who are best at taking care of the forests get the work and get paid according to the quality of their services.

I could see how Guy’s approach is not exactly what the Co-op model here does.

The problem with the co-op model in the Appalachians is that the folks down here don’t like to pay for services of managing their forest. They like to get paid for any products harvested from their sites and most are not willing or able to wait for the payment until after the products are value added and sold at some time in the future. So we tend to work directly with the landowners on a more traditional sharecrop basis and pay them a percentage of what we harvest and sell.

I think Guy’s approach is more of a long term management agreement that could be a form of CSF.

Thanks for joining this discussion. BTW is this Guy Dunkle with Tory Firth?

Hope so, you guys are great and would be a real asset to this community of interest.

~

[Guy]

Yes, this is Guy Dunkle. Hello!

In my area we face most of the problems that you mentioned, Jason. Landowners are accustomed to receiving income from their forests rather than investing in them. Also many are reluctant to enter into long-term agreements.

The problem is that with increasing pressure from invasive species, high-grade harvests, and regeneration problems I think landowners will be forced to start investing money and time if they want a sustainable forest. I think the days of active ownership every 15 years during a commercial harvest are over.

Another big problem we run into is landowners who practice good forestry for a 5 or 10 year period and then whack their timber to send kids to college or pay the bills. It’s a real setback for us to lose a woodlot in which we’ve invested 10 years.

This post has mostly been me griping, sorry. On a positive note, I suspect that between new markets for low grade material and increased gov’t costshare programs there will be money for CSFs or co-ops to do TSI work, invasive control, etc. Like I said previously I think the future of forest management involves more of these activities and that may mean that we can work on fewer acres and stay busy.

I assume that the landowners most apt to utilize CSFs or co-ops would also be more likely to appreciate the need to invest in forest management. Now if all those landowners would just move to NW Pennsylvania I’d be set.

[Gabe Ayers]

Hey Guy,

So glad you and Troy are going to be at the PASA event this year. Jagger and I presented there a couple of years ago and Gary Anderson spoke there last year on forestry issues.

The work Troy Firth has been doing for years is a quiet example of some of the best forest management I have ever seen.

I am also glad you have joined this site.

I would like to direct your attention to the DAPFI group that is developing with the support of Carl and this site. I am not sure if I included your email address and contact information on that list, but would like to be sure you both are included in this new group. I would imagine you could add some names of the practitioners you all have working in your group in NW Pa.

I think it would be interesting for many DAP readers to hear about what you are doing management wise.

How many horse loggers are you all working with now?

How many acres of forestland are involved in the effort you and Troy are managing?

How are the markets for native species of logs and lumber looking lately?

When your landowner’s do decide to liquidate their forest do you guys bid on the sale and do the work?

Please tell us more about your programs, silviculture and collection of practitioners. I heard from Troy at SDAD that you all had some great
Amish horsemen working in the woods on some of your jobs.

We have just posted the dates and location for this years SDAD event and hope Troy and you will be able to attend. Maybe a panel discussion would be a good way for you guys story to be told to anyone interested.

Have you personally worked any horses when you are not carrying a paint gun or chainsaw around? I am sure you have guys that could provide instruction in the skills of that aspect of this work, but I suspect Troy will want to keep you doing what you are already doing.

Welcome aboard. Thanks for sharing what you all are doing. Troy has been an inspiration for me personally for years now. I met Troy through an article in Forbes Magazine years ago entitled: “This asset grows to the Sky”. This was a great story documenting the superior economic returns from improvement “worst first single tree selection” styled forestry. Forbes doesn’t care about horses or the environment, but they care about making money and this article highlighted that potential in a clear way a long time ago. I believe the economics are still the same as long as we have markets for the products.

Best wishes to Firth Maple Products ~

[Guy]

OK… Here’s a little bit about Firth Maple Products.
Between Troy Firth’s land and our established clients we manage about 10,000 acres in NW Pennsylvania and SW New York. 98% or more of this land we skid with horses. Right now we have 4 horse crews working for us, in the recent past we’ve had as many as 12. We’re practicing uneven aged management in stands of primarily black cherry and sugar maple with some red oak, tulip poplar, white ash components. We borrow Jason’s phrase “worst first” to describe our single tree selection but also incorporate 1/2 to 5 acre group selections to regenerate shade intolerant species.

In addition to the forestry operation we run a sawmill, maple syrup business and several timberland investment groups. In 2004 Troy started the Foundation for Sustainable Forests, a nonprofit group to own and manage timberland in the area.

The markets here have been poor. There is some demand, but prices are low enough that there is little activity. Like most folks in the lumber business we’re just trying to get by.

We do conduct some woods walks and horse logging demos with local groups every year. We’re always interested in opportunities to talk about or show people what we’re doing in the woods.

And no, I don’t get a chance to work a team myself. Like you said, Jason, there are plenty of folks up here to learn from but I haven’t made an opportunity to hold the reins yet. For now I stick to the paint gun, chainsaw and occasionally *shhhhh* a small tractor in my own woods.

[Scott G]

Guy,

It is great to have you on board! I too find myself behind the paint gun trigger too often, but more so on the phone, ‘puter, and at meetings talking about forestry & forest health disproportionate to the amount of time I’m grabbing lines and throttling a saw.

And your tractor is OK… Myself and another fellow I work with are getting ready to fire up a mixed system with me skidding & pre-bunching for a Valtra tractor with a forwarding trailer. This system of horse(s) skidding to a forwarder is a perfect example of a very viable mixed harvesting system which has a great future/potential. Several folks are already using this system and its efficiency, especially in uneven-aged management, causes many forest managers in the “conventional” world to pay attention.

We will be working on an aspen restoration project we have lined out, removing all of the lodgepole to release the advance aspen regen. Nothing is better than a horse at selectively plucking out a lodgepole overstory while leaving the aspen regen intact.

Take a look at our contact list in progress https://sites.google.com/site/draftanimalpoweredforestry/ and see if there is anyone you think we should add. E-mail me with additions and/or corrections.

Thanks again,
Scott

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