Devons and such

[Anonymous]

Kevin Sounds to me you are on the right track you have some time on your side so planning is the next step. If you identify your markets and you realize that If you have registered animals are you able to pass that cost on to people buying a family cow, beef shouldn`t be a problem . How many people want a team of oxen?
Getting animals might be a concern there are other options with today`s technoligy (sp) sexed semen, sexed embreo`s etc. not cheap but they are options.
Then there is time how much do you have? You will have to imprint these calves so they won`t be raised like beef calves more like dairy calves, so numbers are very important
I certainly don`t want you to think I am a negitive person but raising any livestock comes with risks, in 19 years of milking cows we lost 3 heifer calves (I personally take no credit for that that was my wife) but you can count on one hand the number off cows that died in our barn, considering we had Jerseys, if you are carefull and you don`t mind your vet retiring rich and early you can minimize the risks
As a side note when we started out as a pair off novices who realy didn`t know our arse from a hole in the ground someone told us to expect a 50/50 heifer to bull split and it probably was pretty close to that over the years.Now with todays advances in AI you can fool with mother nature although it is expensive to do it
So if I can give you any advice keep planning until you get something you can work with
remember most people don`t plan to fail they fail to plan! Talk to your banker,your ag extention officer what ever they are called where you are and keep planning

[Droverone]

First and foremost get a breed that suits you!

Dealing with a breed that you are not entirely satisfied with is like a bad marriage. Get a breed that your heart and soul is completely in love with.

Devon’s are not for everyone, they are smarter than most of the teamsters that have them, few people that have them do the breed justice for the intelligence that they have. They are easily deceiving I the hands of masterfull leadership. *Herefords are not for everyone, they are strong but the purebreds can be sullen, and they are prone to obesity. Crossbreed versions in there various *proven forms are designed to remove some of these qualities and enhance the overall hybrid vigor.

Small herd numbers can be fine, but the use of a breed that is all one color or pattern removes the chances that you don’t get “matching pairs” like the guys in new England “have to have”!
Erika bucked the system and she’s as happy as can be!

Having all heifers and or cows, related and that are bred to the same bull, makes choosing animals that are destined to be framed alike easier too. There are a lot of subtleties and nuances that are not being directly discussed. *Andy has a group of heifers that are all related, and they “ALL” will be bred to a bull, THE SAME BULL! His father had three cows and was somehow able to regularly get a pair of bull calves to train, but sometimes he got heifers and he trained them too!

There are and enormous amount of variables that none of us can comprehensively and realistically discuss here, all of which have been manipulated and contorted over the generations, until we reach what is “apparent oxen culture” today. Don’t be fooled into conforming to what others think is correct, just because it works for them, find what fits you! *No matter where you are!

New England Ox culture with its extensive history is a fickle beast, and the haute couture is just that, made to custom fit that particular culture, and if they don’t adjust and adapt, they will find that it does not fit everyone!

Do what you want, no matter where you are………

Safety first
Happiness second
Fulfillment to follow…………..

[Kevin Cunningham]

This is the advice that I need and that is why I bring this up here. I have the time to figure this out and right now the concept is like a glittering little gem in the distance. I love looking at the pictures of the devons, shorthorns, and herefords for that matter. I have to accept the fact that I am still such a novice when it comes to cattle. Those subtleties that you speak of Droverone are the things that I need to start to look at and experience. I am at the very beginning stages of this development and I have not seen enough to make real decisions about what will make the best choice. I like the look of devons which is one thing. I have read plenty of times that they are super intelligent and frequently out smart their handlers, but I have never actually encountered them. It would be a shame if I commit to spending a lot of time and money on breeding animals that on some level I dislike. Honestly that is why I am getting out of the goat business. I can appreciate goats for all their good qualities but mostly they just irritate me, my heart is just not in it. But that is why I am even contemplating raising cattle, because when I go out and feed the steers, brush them, and yoke them up all the stress melts away and it is the highlight of my day. I don’t get the same feeling from feeding the chickens, or moving the sheep, or milking the goats, or even training my dog. I have to be honest and say that cattle in general touch me deeply. Now that is why I want to spend the time to figure out which breed will make my heart sing. I don’t own a huge ranch but enough ground to raise a small amount and that seems like a perfect fit to make a deep connection with the animals and get very well trained teams of oxen, and cows for that matter. My short experience with the main breeds around here have taught me that my actual experience can run contrary to what my thoughts were. Everybody around here loves Jerseys, they are small, and have doe eyes, high butterfat and are not “monster milk machines” like the Holsteins. But like my vet says they have a tendency to give up and die. I am not terribly fond of the personalities of the jerseys I have met. My team is half, and my off steer seems to have more jersey in him because he does have the tendency to give up, he always has. Holsteins on the other hand seem to be malaligned as mere producers, big and dumb, but I seem to like the holsteins better. This is not what I would have expected. So maybe I should raise holsteins but I certainly don’t need all that milk!

[Oxhill]

Chris makes a good point about getting a breed that your heart and soul are in love with. While the two you have picked are the best two in my opinion maybe you shouldn’t limit yourself just yet. How will you make an informed decision on them? It will be a big investment on a mail order bride. For me it was Devons or nothing. Not because they are the best oxen just because I like the breed and wanted to support it.

Both Devons and Shorthorns make great oxen and the differences in them as oxen can all be pros or cons depending on how you look at them.

An old teamster and mentor to my father used to say that Devons are some of the hardest to match. They may look alike as calves but not as adults. Also a long time Devon breeder told me that Devons vary. It is just part of the breed. Some are dark some are light some lean more to the beef and some dairy. Unless you are going for best matched team in a New England fair how important is this. Consistency is a goal but it is much more important that they work well together.

As far as the ratio of bulls to heifers: if it is a hobby why not break your heifers? If not all the time you could at least for the year that you didn’t get enough bulls.

[Oxhill]

Here is the shipping website I mentioned earlier.

If your main goal is to produce working cattle for yourself. What about breeding Kevin’s Custom Cattle? Start with a breed that will make a good base and is more available to you and then use AI to cross whatever you want into it. Over the years you could breed your cattle into exactly what YOU want.

[Kevin Cunningham]

I have thought about just that very scenario. My first thought was to get some milking shorthorn, of the general dairy type, probably not the old school triple purpose type, and then mix in devon or ayrshire or whatever seems to make sense to get more of a draft oriented animal. I only know of one dairy here in California that milks shorthorns and then only person I know that has gotten a cow from that dairy has had all six teeted calves. So I am concerned about the genetics from that particular cow but that doesn’t mean all of their cows are like that. That is still a possible option but I am not sure I want to go the milking route as I am leaning more towards beef production.

What are some of the more common oxen crosses that you have seen and have been successful? Could I for example cross a devon with a holstein? If I cross a polled herford (more common around here) with a shorthorn (durham) via AI would the resultant offspring have horns? I am not so inclined towards jerseys but is there a good cross with them? Any there any crosses that I am not thinking about that would make good draft animals?

[dominiquer60]

I don’t know if you thought of this possibility, but I imagine shipping older cattle is less risky than young stock.

I sure if you contact Dulcy at Tillers she can tell you about the 2012 animals available.

http://www.tillersinternational.org/tillers/store_cattleforsale.html

[Oxhill]

Funny you mention a Shorthorn Devon Ayrshire cross as that is exactly what Countrymouse has and the cows they came from looked like great multipurpose cows.

I would look for a breed to be your base. Something you like and could be crossed with most anything. To me that would rule out Jerseys. Holsteins would work well as would Brown Swiss but I think I would prefer horned Herfords. Herfords would be shorter, tend to have better feet, and feed out better for beef. Normandys would also be interesting if you happen to be able to get them.

What crosses are good depends on what you want your cattle to be. Some popular crosses are Holstein/Devon, Holstein/Herford, Herford/Shorthorn, Holstein/Chianina.

I am sure some of the other folks here can give more ideas.

[Kevin Cunningham]

I guess that what I need to do is clearly define what it is that I want to do with my herd and my oxen. Right now we are a tractor based vegetable farm, with some grains, poultry and expanding into some other grass based meat production, lamb or beef. I am not going to give up my tractor tomorrow but I do have visions of doing more of my farming with draft power as well as other work around the farm. I am also interested in some logging, but being Redwood country that might mean something different here. I have no oppurtunity to show or pull so that is not a part of my equation, but I still want a good looking and behaving pair. Being a CSA farm and working with students seasonally, we have many visitors to the farm so I need a smart looking and bomb proof team. Right now my theory is unproven, as I am clearly a novice when it comes to cattle, but I would really like to do some actual farming with my oxen. So that means a team large enough to plow efficiently as well as fast enough to move along and get things done. Plus maybe multiple teams. I want a balance of activity and steadiness, in other words I want the perfect cattle.

I know most of the outcome will be based on my training of the teams but some of it can also be breed specific behaviours. I would say that my personality is of a controlling type. Some people might veer toward not enough discipline and I might veer towards too much discipline. I noticed this about myself when I trained my first dog, a great pyrenees. I did not tolerate misbehaviour, and with a strong willed breed like a pyr it was very helpful and I feel we got a great dog out of the training. But some other more sensitive breeds might have become resentful and aloof, because of my authoritarian style. I am noticing this with my steers. I feel like I have to be careful with my off steer because I worry that I might sour him with my training style. Where as my near steer dosen’t take anything too personally. I don’t think I want a sensitive breed, but I also don’t want to get into power struggles with a stong willed animal either.

Since I am the only one in a large area of California, that I know of, training cattle, I also want something to set myself apart from the rest of the dairy and beef industry around here. Of course by simply having a couple of well behaved steers I am already getting some distinction in the neighborhood. But having a visually unique animal could set me apart from the crowd. I have never had any interactions with devons, shorthorns, ayrshires, or herefords. So I do not know how I like their temperments, but I do like the look of red cattle on green grass. Something about it touches me deeply, don’t know if that is just whimsy but just something to note.

I am also willing to throw all my preconcieved notions out the window and just go with something local, after all there are reasons we have what we have around here. We are generally just dairy country so mostly jerseys and holsteins, and then the ubiquitous black beef cattle, angus types. No need for pulling so a HosteinXChianina is out but what about the other ones. What make a good all around farm cross with Holstein?

[carl ny]

To start with let me say that I know very little about oxen. That said, I remember an old guy around here years ago had a team of Jersey oxen. Of course they are a smaller ox but he swore by them. He said if you don’t need them any bigger,why go to the expense to feed them. Comes down to what you plan on doing with them. I do know that Jersey’s are a very docile animal and they taste good to. That’s all I ever raised for beef for myself. JMHO

carl ny

[Tim Harrigan]

Holstein x Herefords are handsome and usually make nice oxen. There is as much variability within breeds as between breeds so you will have a gamble either way you go.

[Droverone]

” I don’t think I want a sensitive breed, but I also don’t want to get into power struggles with a stong willed animal either. “

Well then you don’t want a Chianina…………. Period, although I am sure Howard Vanord might have an exception.

Howard Vanord stated to me a long time ago that crossbreeds can improve due to to hybrid vigor, so you can hardly go wrong with cross breeds.

Large cattle, tall cattle, are prone to joint problem
Short , beef style are prone to obesity

So cross breed and be prepared to keep the style that suits you.

Holsteins tend to be a little thick headed, Devon’s are smart and quick

Holsteins tend to be a little thick headed, shorthorns tend to be sharp

Ayrshires, no matter what is said are no more prone to kicking than any other breed!!!!!!

Crossbreeds of any of these will make fine steers, why not, they have for centuries!

[Oxhill]

If the visitors or students will be driving them at all I don’t think you want full Devons or full Chianina.

What would you improve on a Holstein to make it the perfect breed for you?

[Oxhill]

Also I don’t think you will get red cattle with anything crossed to a black and white Holstein.

[Kevin Cunningham]

So if I was to work with a local dairy farm, the same one that my current steers come from, and have them do some AI on their cows, how many numbers would I want to do to make it worth their time and my investment. The farmer at the dairy would know which cows would be suitable if I spoke to him about my intentions. They have really good practices and seem to understand the cattle, as they are breeding for grass based genetics. Their herd started as pure holstein but has become more cross bred with jersey, ayrshire, and other genetics, seeking the best performers on grass and forage, they are eliminating grain feeding in their operation. I would promise to buy all the calves regardless of sex, so would I want to breed 4, 8, 10 cows? And what would be a reasonalbe offer to make for this kind of deal? It doesn’t ultimately matter, but they do have some red in the herd(red holstein and some ayrshire I am assuming), so that is possible, but temperment and health should be more important. Then I would have to figure out how I would feed so many little ones. I would have to get a nurse cow or two. This type of arrangement could work well and give me a lot of control over the start of the herd, but there are also the most variables. I would have more time into this situation, which has its pros and cons. I would try and at least halter break all of the calves so that handling a small herd could be done easily. I wonder if it would be easier to get either mature or weaned cattle and eliminate some of the initial labor? This is what got me thinking about traveling to get get cattle start with.

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