dog

[Mark Cowdrey]

I am looking for a dog.
When I think about what I would like, all things being equal (which of course they are not), I think of an English Shepard, or at lest what I have read about them. Bid-able, stay at home, guard the place, run off other dogs and predators, hunt vermin, and some herding ability. The herding ability description seems to vary quite a bit depending on who is writing. I defintely do not want a BC, too intense. At the “most” I would want a “loose eye” dog, possibly an Australian Shepard.
That being said, we have had good luck with mutts and crosses (G.Shepard X B. Lab) and I am open to suggestions and availability. But I definitely want a dog that wants to do what I want it to do. If you have ever had one, you know what I mean.
Here’s the article from SFJ that I first learned about them:
http://www.englishshepherds.net/SFJjet.htm

also:
http://www.englishshepherd.org/
http://www.farmcollie.com/

The idea of picking a breeder off the net is daunting to the point of being a non-starter. Pus, I have absolutely no idea what kind of money we are talking here, it could all be a pipe dream.

Anyway, I’d be interested to hear anyone’s comments or if anyone knows of good dogs or pups available.
Thanks,
Mark

[Carl Russell]

We have an English Shepard. She is a good dog. Alert, and protective…. A little narrow on the handler thing, whereas our Lab will love anybody who approaches him, the Shepard is pretty much Lisa’s dog. She is good around the kids, and tolerates me, but really only takes direction from Lisa, or possibly Tuli.

I particularly like the fact that she is more interested in maintaining order than herding all the time. She just cruises the perimeter, and if she find a bird out she will work on getting it back into the pen. She is a little yappy around the horses, and not very aggressive about the cows, but certainly is not a trouble maker, pestering animals all the time.

Just basically a good farm dog. Watchful, helpful, loyal, and fairly laid back.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Also she is not a big dog. I know of two of her brothers and they are a bit larger than she. She’s probably 35-40 lbs!???

Lisa bought her from a breeder in NY State….. I’ll have to get her to post about that including links, etc.

Carl

[near horse]

Hi Mark,

We have a Golden Retriever/Pyranees cross that certtainly fit s the bill in most ways. As my wife says, he’s head of homeland security. He will let you know if there’s anything going on out of the ordinary (barking) as well as run off coyotes and other perceived threats (crows trying to steal his food) but is not a herder. Will stick around home – not a roamer (but he’s castrated). He respects the horses and keeps his distance. Good and friendly with family and familiar folks but protective when unknown people show up – he won’t bite but he is an intimidating big dog (about 100#). The only time that’s trouble is when the UPS or FedEx guys show up.

Very smart dog, can open the door and let himself out, taps doorknob with his nose to come in ….

Down side – a freakin’ hairy mess and really big dogs usually don’t live much beyond 10yrs or so.

[Robert MoonShadow]

Hey Geoff – gorgeous dog – I recently picked up a Newfoundland x Great Pyranees “puppy” – she’s 16 months and just a sweetie…loves the neighbors’ kids & their pet (orphan) mule deer fawn…won’t let anything (‘cept people) near the goats at all. With work, I’m suspecting she’ll fit right in for a guardian dog – we’ve got wolves, cougar and bear hereabouts, so my BC x Aussie bitch isn’t big enough for guard duty.
I’ve heard good things about Airedale Terriers…being VERY easy to train, and multi-purpose, too.

[Does’ Leap]

Hey Mark, that’s alot to ask in one dog. I’ve got a Jack Russel to hunt vermin, a Great Pyrenees to guard my stock, and 3 border collies to move my animals. They all are great working animals and companions. One dog that does all well is a tall order. I don’t know much about English Shepards. A friend of mine has one and loves the dog, but he is does not show much herding ability with his cows.

Good luck and let us know what you end up with.

George

[sanhestar]

Hello,

we have Aussies and one English Shepherd.

I would recommend the English because finding an Aussie breeder that breeds dogs that still have these old traits is not that easy and Aussies – from what I know – are more expensive than English.

For Aussies, which can be more stubborn than English – English being smarter and more manipulative, I would recommend:

Jamie Burns – Cutn’Loose Aussies
Terry Martin – Slash V – strong dogs, bred to herd cattle mostly
Pine Creek Aussies
Las Rocosa – Jean Hartnagle has much knowledge about the “old” Aussie and is also active in the English Shepherd community

For English Shepherds

Linda McCall – very easy going dogs
Mary Peaslee

There’s a good mailing list on yahoo called working english shepherds

ES pups seems to be less expensive but more Aussie breeders to testing of before breeding (hips, eyes, genetic defects) than ES breeders (from what I learned while looking for an ES).

ES have less hereditary problems than Aussies but they too can have HD, MDR1 defects and some of the eye defects that can be found in all of the collie related breeds.

What type of stock to you want to herd?

[earthwise]

Mark –

As Carl said, I can give you a little more information about the English Shepherd that we bought. We purchased her when she was almost 4 months old … I would have perferred getting her at two months, but the perfect puppy arose and here we are. I think if she had been younger when she started here she may have bonded with carl more… understandably, she still is not too sure about him 🙂

I purchased Faileas(her name) from Tish Toren in NY state (near the fingerlakes). Tish has a farm and is a wealth of information. I am including her website and contact information in case you are interested.

Faileas is just over a year now and is ‘coming into her own’… she is great with the poultry and is still needing to take on the chore of ‘working’ the larger livestock… but there isn’t much for her to do around them… It would be great if I made the time to work on some skills with her so that I had some commands for her to follow and she felt like she had more to do.

We will see what this year will bring. She is a great family dog… willing to ‘lay low’ in the house with us if nothing exciting is going on. She LOVES to play catch and is quite the athlete… lots of potential for her on so many levels. Often times if I have to walk down to the barn (about 800 feet from the house), she will choose to stay up at the house and ‘take care of the kids’ if they are playing outside. I kind of like that.

It sounds like you have been reading into the English Shepherd breed, but if you haven’t found it yet, there is an American Working Farm Collie discussion forum on Yahoo (http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/AWFA/) …. I lurk there and learn a lot about the breed and my dog’s potential. Again, we found the perfect dog for us… We paid $600 though…. probably would have been $500 if I had gotten her at 2 months…. Money well spent, I think.

Here is the contact info of the person who sold me our pup
-Tish Toren
The Blacksheep Homestead
Phone: 607 229-3947
email: blacksheephomestead@yahoo.com
http://www.geocities.com/blacksheephomestead
member AWFA- http://www.farmcollie.com

Lisa McCrory
Earthwisefarmandforest.com

[Mark Cowdrey]

Thank you all for the interest, comments and suggestions. More food for thought and directions for investigation.

Mark

[near horse]

@Robert MoonShadow 23747 wrote:

Hey Geoff – gorgeous dog – I recently picked up a Newfoundland x Great Pyranees “puppy” – she’s 16 months and just a sweetie…loves the neighbors’ kids & their pet (orphan) mule deer fawn…won’t let anything (‘cept people) near the goats at all. With work, I’m suspecting she’ll fit right in for a guardian dog – we’ve got wolves, cougar and bear hereabouts, so my BC x Aussie bitch isn’t big enough for guard duty.
I’ve heard good things about Airedale Terriers…being VERY easy to train, and multi-purpose, too.

Hey Moonshadow – nice to hear from you! The folks I know that run sheep/goats near or in our area, all use Pyranees or Newfers for guard animals. Talked to one guy that had his 2 GP’s kill a cougar that was after his goats.

BTW – Thanks for the comment on our dog (Chumley) – I’ll let him know!

PM me with your contact info and let’s see if we can meet up again soon.

[Nat(wasIxy)]

Waddya know…I’m english and have never even heard of an ‘english shepherd’!? 😀 Perhaps they should be called american shepherds lol

[jac]

Hey Ixy I agree:D.. could our American cousins be talking of the border collie perhaps ??..
John

[Robert MoonShadow]

@jac 23783 wrote:

Hey Ixy I agree:D.. could our American cousins be talking of the border collie perhaps ??..
John

I think they’re descended from BCs, aren’t they? Anyone know of any ES breeders out west?

[Mark Cowdrey]

Jac et al,
Different from a border collie, at least the kind we have over here. Not an “eye” dog, but a “loose eye” dog. Herds from an upright stance and turns the “eye” on and off as needed. Also, more of an all round type with guardian and hunting tendencies/abilities. At least that is what I am reading. Probably descended from the same stock back when.

From ES websites:
“
HISTORY
English Shepherds are descendants of the Shepherds’ dogs of England and southern Scotland. This group also gave rise to modern “show” Collies and Border Collies. English Shepherds differ from their cousins in having been bred primarily for an upright, loose-eyed herding style, and by the continuous selection for all-around ability. These abilities include not only herding but also guarding and hunting. The surge in popularity of dog shows and sheepdog trials in the 20th century resulted in increased demand for the Collie types which these venues were designed to showcase. English Shepherds have never been primarily show dogs or trial dogs, but rather practical versatile workers for farmers who were interested in function rather than flash. “

Robert, there are breeders out west, I can’t seem to find the webpage just now with the breeder list.

Mark

[sanhestar]

@Ixy 23775 wrote:

Waddya know…I’m english and have never even heard of an ‘english shepherd’!? 😀 Perhaps they should be called american shepherds lol

You have to be on the lookout – there are two ES breeders in England and the number of English Shepherds is on the rise. Coming back to the homeland.

@Robert MoonShadow: it’s the other way around. The Border Collie is a rather “young” herding breed, the breeding for a lot of “eye” started in the late 18hundreds, when trialing became a thing you could earn money with. Before there were the collie type herding dogs with loose eye. F.e. the Welsh Sheepdog is such an old race, went almost extinct when the Border Collie “hype” started back then.

Almost all of the older herding breeds work with lose eye, I know of only the kelpie (descendent from the BC) that works with that much “eye”, too.

[Author]

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