dog

[Nat(wasIxy)]

@sanhestar 23797 wrote:

You have to be on the lookout – there are two ES breeders in England and the number of English Shepherds is on the rise. Coming back to the homeland.

I’m guessing these are imports though? This is not a breed that was recognised here and died out – definately think it’s a misnomer! Their ‘homeland’ is america!

[sanhestar]

yes, they are re-imported and they have similar ancestors than the “original” British herding dogs – all being within the collie family.

These dogs left England in the 18th century with immigrants and the first kennel club was established in the middle of the 19th century.

[Does’ Leap]

Sabine:

Do your dogs herd? If so, what livestock and which breed performs better (Aussies or ES)?

George

[Carl Russell]

Over the years I have known the ES as “Collie”. They were not used like a BC to herd, but rather to assist with order, protection, and were more likely to “go get the cows” before milking. One older farmer friend of mine remembers his uncle’s dog Brownie, from command, wandering down to the back pasture and returning behind a long line of cows…. no so much herding like a BC, but just a chore dog that will stand in the way, or get behind as directed to assist.

Our dog is not entirely there…. but we don’t have a lot of call for her either. She has learned to take responsibility for the poultry though, and is really good at working them, with or without a human. She only attacked one turkey that got away from her when she was quite young, but she was immediately aware that was not appreciated by us. She is great now.

Carl

[sanhestar]

@Does’ Leap 23808 wrote:

Sabine:

Do your dogs herd? If so, what livestock and which breed performs better (Aussies or ES)?

George

Hello,

our dogs herd, we have goats and do brush clearing in the summer in addition to the goatpacking.

I can’t really make the difference depending on breed. We have one Aussie, bred from herding lines that has a lot of instinct to herd but is too soft to be trained and then we have the little English “girl”, who has not so much instinct but more will and self-confidence to get the job done.

[Does’ Leap]

Sabine:

I am glad to hear you are herding goats. That is somewhat of a rarity around here. I am in the process of training my fourth border collie. Our dogs have worked almost every class of livestock (hogs, sheep, cattle, and poultry), but mainly work goats. With the exception of a super aggressive steer, goats are by far the most challenging. If they can, goats will ignore the dog and stand aloof to the “hard eye” of the dog. When annoyed they will try to go after the dog until put in their place. I don’t know if you find the same with your goats.

Our new pup showed so much interest and confidence that we started working him at 3 months. This can be dangerous as a young dog can get tagged by an aggressive animal and lose his confidence. However, at 4 months this pup (15 lbs soaking wet) could turn a herd of 70 goats around by himself. He’s now 7 months and I am working on widening his flanks and not always responding with teeth when he feels threatened. A good herding dog amazes and fascinates me as we (humans) have yet to devise a machine or technology that could approach what these dogs do. I have had traditional dairy farmers who swear by moving their cows with an atv stand slack-jawed as the watch what a good dog can do.

George

[sanhestar]

Hello,

I don’t think that we’re a “regular” herding operation. Because of the goatpacking I train all goats to be tame and respond to names resp. commands and to stay around me.

The dogs very often now simply act as an enforcer while we move from pasture to pasture and/or keep the goats out of orchards and fields while grazing.

The goats know the herding commands by now and often respond faster than the dog can put them into action.

It took me and our first dog about 1,5 years to become a team, every part of the trio – human, dog and goats – without any herding experience.

The actual herd responds very good to the dogs that have enough confidence. With the younger dogs or if I move long distances I take two dogs. Also because the goats have become so used to the dogs it’s not so easy for one dog alone, especially as all except for the youngest male don’t want to go toe-to-toe with the goats that often.

I remember the first year when our late herd queen still lived. She and Sioux – the first Aussie – had regular “battles” while we were on the move. Saeta – the goat – wanting to run ahead and Sioux doing the best she could to keep her with the herd. I appreciate the ability of the Aussie (and to some extend the ES) to work with body checks in these situations. BTW – our ES girl gets the goats moving by jostling them from behind with her front paws. She has even less eye than the Aussies and doesn’t like to use her teeth.

I think that this is one part of the intelligence of the ES – they have a way to work around a problem that they can’t solve with specialized ability (like eye in the BC) and come up with a very individual solution.

While I had to train the Aussies to move to the front of the herd while driving to block a direction at a crossing, the ES showed this from the beginning. She determines from my position behind the herd in which direction we will go and blocks the other path, leaving bringing up the rear to the second dog.

[TaylorJohnson]

I seen someone said something about Airedales . They are great all purpose dogs, that is what I have had for a long time .. well along with other dogs here and there . They can do about anything from hunting to herding , I hunt mine mostly. Another great all purpose dog is some of the Cur breeds like Mountain Curs and Black Mouth Curs. In the Curs it is very easy to find a worker because the folks that raise them are for the most part raising them for performance be it hunting or herding . They are very family oriented and are the one of the best all around dogs there is. You will have better luck finding the herding type in the Black Mouth Curs but all can and will. I went to the Airedales for a few reasons one of them being is that they are so tough , nothing bothers these dogs. It was about 20 bellow this morning and these guys were out in the yard playing with a Kong toy. And they are good with my kids as well . I have treed bear, coon, cats , and some other animals . They are not out to look for a fight but if they do get into one they can sure make a mess fast. I have a fenced in yard so it is not a real big deal for me but mine are hunter so if they are loose there job is to go and find … well coon is what I prefer and what they normally get . Since mine hunt they are not the best stay at home or go for a walk with the kids , they could be but I have them trained to go and hunt. So for a guard for the kids and ago for a walk in the woods dog I got them a Blue Heeler . They are good little dogs and are a convenient size and for there size are a lot of dog. My wife can throw him in the car and go to town and he does not take up the hole back seat but if they have to protect they can put the hurt on someone . He is about 8 months old and is already devoted to the wife and kids but is also friendly to visitors . I have had a couple of these Heelers to . What ever you get look at what the parents do at least , get a dog that comes from lines that can do the job not what is written in books . Some of the things they put in the written standards are just words , a lot of these dogs and there lines have not worked in many generations. Taylor Johnson

[bradley]

Hey Mark, just wondering if you have gotten a dog yet? Here are some pictures of our farm collie, Ness. She is the best dog we have ever had, good herder and great companion. She knows her farm well and where all the animals need to be. We didn’t teach her, she just watched and learned how to get the cows in and out of the barn, the chickens and cats out of the garden, and she runs ahead of the horses when we are driving on the road. We got her from upstate New York, Gaia Gift Farm, Sue Hogan. Don’t know if she still breeds them.

[Mark Cowdrey]

Hi Brad,
No dog yet.
Looked seriously at an 18 mo BC that my vet had but decided he was too much dog. An 18 mo ES in Vt didn’t pan out.
Original thinking was to get another dog before our remaining older one goes. Current thinking is there may well be different behavior expectations for the new one so maybe wait. Or not, if the right dog comes along.
Advantages of the 2 we looked at was low/no up front cost. I am hearing 600 for pups. Perhaps reasonable but no less difficult to come up with.

Sounds like you have a good one. Thanks for your inquiry and tip.

Mark

PS
Looks like a PiggyBack FireWood Arch on that forecart! Hope it’s working well for you.

[Author]

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