driving oxen with lines indian style:good or bad?

[Nat(wasIxy)]

Yes I’ve definately heard of nose bits for cattle before – NOT the ones that goes in the mouth. If you read the third bullet point down here:

http://www.ridingsteers1.netfirms.com/

I *think* you take them in and out as you use them, unlike a ring – they are like a bar that unscrews with two loops either side.

[sanhestar]

if you take a close look at the picture under contact you can see what I think is a nose bit

http://www.ridingsteers1.netfirms.com/contact.htm

[bivol]

thank you Ixy for the bits! i’m relieved that i don’t have to pierce the noses at the end!:)
sahnestar, i looked, but couldn’t figure out a lot. but the subject got me interested, i’ll keep looking.

[Nat(wasIxy)]

yep that’s what I was thinking of, but you do still have to pierce the nose – although I think you can take them out after working?

[Rod]

I have a tool which resembles a pair of pliers on the handle end with jaws that are a concave arc which do not close completely at the tips. The tips have small ball shaped smooth ends meant to be inserted into the animals nose. This tool came with my squeeze chute and is used for holding an animals head steady when working on it or to lead a stubborn animal with. I have never used it but it but it seems like something that would work for a nose bit if it were made a little different and would not require piercing to nose to use.

[near horse]

Hi Biovol,

I hopped over to this thread from a recent link you posted. Maybe this isn’t the point, but there are lots of “nose ring/peg” examples. There are the weaning rings (calf cant suck), camel nose pegs, water buffalo …. It seems to me that nose piercing would only be a temporarily painful, like castration, tail docking, ear tagging …. even humans use(d) nose septum piercing as adornment.

That said, people can find ways to abuse an animal with any restraint and control system. It’s more an effect of how it’s used. IMHO

Ixy – if I recall, the camel nose pegs are also removed when not needed. That seems like a good way to go.

[bivol]

@near horse 18836 wrote:

Hi Biovol,

I hopped over to this thread from a recent link you posted. Maybe this isn’t the point, but there are lots of “nose ring/peg” examples. There are the weaning rings (calf cant suck), camel nose pegs, water buffalo …. It seems to me that nose piercing would only be a temporarily painful, like castration, tail docking, ear tagging …. even humans use(d) nose septum piercing as adornment.

That said, people can find ways to abuse an animal with any restraint and control system. It’s more an effect of how it’s used. IMHO

Ixy – if I recall, the camel nose pegs are also removed when not needed. That seems like a good way to go.

hi!
yes, you’re right. the pain is only temporary, but the shape of the ring is also important – for example, if you punch a straight hole through the nose, and put in a round ring, i guess it’ll unease the ox longer than a straight piece of iron, or a rope. there are no instances i know of, of ropes causing any inflamation, ropes have rutinely been used in hot humid conditions, and if they’d give trouble on a regular basis, they would have been discarded. so i guess a nose rope is fully functional, and a nose ring is purely a cultural thing. i’d prefer a rope.

humans are different in nose piercin, though. we pierce where there’s not much sensitive tissue, while the nose of the ox is a sensitive tissue. but having said that, it IS temporary, and there are lots of anestethics now, so i guess it’s no that bad.

abuse can be a problem, but i guess it’s rather simple to train TAME oxen to drive. people who train untamed oxen (like in Cuba) with nose rings sometimes think it’s not neccessary to tame them, and that an ox should be violently broken in (literary) into submission, something i will never support. that’s abuse.

oxen can effectively be tamed within a few weeks from a completely wild to fully tamed. with base set, the nose rings do the dominance and driving, and an ox is made useful in a short while, without unnecessary stress on the animal.
and it’s worth investing in those few weeks, since they’ll be working for years to come.

my two cents

[Nat(wasIxy)]

I think the difference between a human piercing and an animal piercing is that a) a human chooses it themselves and b) It’s not generally pulled around. When a pig’s nose is rung to stop it digging, it soon learns not to dig as they pulling on the ring hurts it, that’s how it works. Likewise a bull can be led by it’s nosering as it is eager to conform to what you want rather than have the pain in it’s nose.

I think as bivol says, in the past oxen were take from a near-wild state and made to work in a very quick time – a stick through the nose was a quick way to get it to submit. Mine are trained almost from birth and have no kind of bit at all – it’s not vital. OK if you wanted ot use one for whatever reason, but you don’t have to feel that you MUST.

[bivol]

sometimes it is vital, even with oxen raised by hand, as they get older. but yes, that MUST USE THEM mindset, to rely on them too heavily, can be crippling to a teamster, and i guess it’s even harder to learn the oxen (and oneself) to rely on voice commands if one can tug a rope. not that it’s not practical, but i guess it’s hard to have both. hard, although not impossible.

but, nose rings do have their advantages, like instant stopping, and better control in crowds when driving in a wagon. so much they are more practical, for safety reasons if not for the possibility to drive in a wagon.

i’d say it entirely depends on a situation oneself finds him/herself in.

[bivol]

another thing: on taming adult wild oxen,
it isn’t wise to rely solely on nose rings to achieve dominance, most of it should be done by other means, the nose rings being only a little help. they are for directing.

all in all you need at least a sturdy corral with some shade, away from other cattle or unnecessary noise.
this should be done the following: if you have time, put them in a corral and gradually get to know them, feed them, but if you don’t have lots of time, start doing the following a few days after they arrive and settle in. offer them food, every day, for a few times, but only when you’re there, take it away with you. after a few days they will come to you, and you will, though controlling their food, become the dominant in the herd. this makes wild mature cattle safer around the teamster, as he dominates them psychically, instead through force. they subdue because the fulfills the role of the leader; he provides them with food.
nose rings can best help control oxen in the yoke (as mature wild cattle are prone to running away in yoke), but dominance is best achieved though non-physical means.
if you break in wild oxen by physical force alone, you can always expect they will do the same to you if they get an opportunity. and i personally dislike working with animals i don’t trust.

maybe it is somewhat cruel, and i wouldn’t reccommend it unless as a last resort, but it is more humane, less painfull, and quicker (no beating), than beating them into submission. if you beat them into submission, you will have to keep on doing it, because they will not be tamed, they will be traumatized into cooperation, that isn’t taming, that’s abuse.

[Nat(wasIxy)]

They didn’t seem to have time for that in the old days – the mthod I’ve seen described is getting ropes on them, pulling them down and driving a stick though their nose….then be infuriated when the animal constantly tries to attack you/buck you off/run away :rolleyes:

[bivol]

i don’t think they didn’t have the time to tame them, they didn’t know they could do that. their view of oxen is one they saw; wild, free-range beasts, who were dangerous (from beating, go figure!) and who could be dealt with only with force.
even if you don’t have years, you can take week or so to tame the animals, tame animals learn better and quicker than skittish, wild ones, because they trust the teamster and pay attention to what he has to say (instead of how will he hurt them this time). so the whole process goes faster and easier.

it was fun to read in the ox harness manual,where the author introduced the gentle taming and upbringing of oxen from calves (basically as used in Europe and USA and Canada) in a South American country, he noted that the students were surprised to learn that oxen can be affectionate, as it was customary to break in adult oxen in the country (Argentina?)

and also, of that video someone showed to farmers in cuba a video of a child in H4 contest driving huge oxen aside without touching them. they couldn’t believe it!

in this sense the indian population of teamsters is a blessing, to show how to use the nose rope system without (the teamster) falling victim to it. the key to it is to have tame oxen in the first place, and use the rings only to steer:D them about.

[mathuranatha]

In close proximity to parked cars etc nose ropes can be very precise avoiding cars by inches confidently . But one of my friends who insists on driving only by voice has scraped and damaged a car sometimes .:p.

I have been to India probably 30 times over the last 3decades or so .The Indians are very practical .They use voice control as well as nose reigns

They say bullocks have their own language and the commands they use are in bullock language .get up is ja-ja-ja-ja , stop is haaaaar , turn right is bu- bu – bu – bu , left is darn- darn – darn- darn .From memory , it was 20 years ago I heard that maybe more .

To shoe them they just call everyone nearby and about 20 people grab the bullock and push him over and sit on him while he is shod.

In India there isnt lots of lush grass right on the side of the road .But in the west the grass they are walking right past is soooo green and lush and untouched if they decide to disobey the voice and you dont have reigns you can roll your wagon . I have rolled my wagon once and my friend also .Lot of work to pick up all your things and get the wagon upright again .

keep drivin them bullocks — mat —

[CharlyBonifaz]

I have rolled my wagon once and my friend also .

been there, done that 😀
very quick way to learn indeed: I ended up in the middle of a nettle field with only (little) summer wardrobe on 😮
my very own mistake and never repeated yet

[bivol]

@mathuranatha 19727 wrote:

In close proximity to parked cars etc nose ropes can be very precise avoiding cars by inches confidently . But one of my friends who insists on driving only by voice has scraped and damaged a car sometimes .:p.

I have been to India probably 30 times over the last 3decades or so .The Indians are very practical .They use voice control as well as nose reigns

keep drivin them bullocks — mat —

yep, indians are practical!

and worshiping bovines as holy animals and having an ancient stockman culture no one can persuade me they use nose rings because they don’t know other means to control oxen.
in fact, if THEY use them, it’s the strongest evidence of how practical the nose rope system is.

voice commands can be pretty good and enough in a traditional rural setting, but today, in the cities, and in now-mechanized rural setting, when a tractor comes thundering past your wagon, you may need extra precision to avoid problems!

Mat, do you know any ox-related stories from India?

*ponders to himself*
I’m curious about one thing: here in the west i guess metal rings are prefered because ropes are believed to cause infections in the noses, especially in warm humid weather. yet, india is for a good part warm and humid and nose ropes are used, without major problems i i think…
i’d like to know details about the system – how to treat the animals until the wound settles, in what weather to do the piercing,…

i have a friend over here who has cattle (traditional busha) and he’s considering raising a pair of oxen. now, maybe nose ropes would be a good idea to teach these high energy steers to work quickly and obediently.

P.S. i was really busy till now, but now i can take a breather, so time to spend some time here!…

[Author]

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