Fear Memories in Horses

[Rob FLory]

Hi,

Here’s the start of a little story on training a horse with a problem having his feet worked on.

I don’t know the whole history of the horse, but I suspect he had some bad experiences before we got him. We had a big fight with him in the barn on his last shoeing, with a farrier we are not used to working with. He had us twitch him and though he got the shoes on, it was a pretty negative experience.

The horse has been fairly predictable at attacking anyone who tries to mess with his feet in his stall.

It happened that Temple Grandin spoke locally right when we found ourselves in this mess, and we asked her about training horses out of fear memories. She said that fear memories were quite location specific in horses, and that some people had had success with clicker training.

Since clicker training involves treats, I had to spend about 2 weeks teaching him to accept a treat. He wouldn’t take a piece of apple or carrot, or a sugar cube. Finally I got him to take sugar cubes by clicking him and throwing them in his feed bowl. Once he associated the click with a tasty treat in the bowl I was able to click him and give it by hand. The click is to communicate to the horse when it has done the correct behavior, and that a treat is coming. The click is also supposed to help prevent the horse from looking for treats at the wrong time. I have just been using a clucking sound with my tongue, as my hands are often too full to use a mechanical clicker.

We started working with him out in the barnyard with one person holding him as the silent partner, doing little more than squaring him. I have been the trainer. I soften him up with some grooming, starting at the shoulders etc. where he really likes it, and working down to the feet. I get a foot up, hold it for a little while, click him, hold it a while longer, give a release command, and put the foot down. We have progressed from 5-10 second lifts with effort to him lifting them on command the majority of the time, and holding them for a minute plus for cleaning and trimming the frog, etc.

Last week, after a really great session in the barnyard, I decided to take him directly to the stall and try a front hoof. He took a real good bite on my lower back which is turning all sorts of interesting colors, and keeping me on light duty so I don’t cause it to bleed any more.

We have had a nice barnyard session since.

Wow, the contrast in behavior could not be greater between the two locations, confirming Dr. Grandin’s observation.

So, that is the beginning of the story. More to follow as we try to figure out how to get him to allow us to work with his feet in the barn. Obviously, in the mean time we will be continuing in the yard.

Rob Flory

[Plowboy]

Rob, I can’t really blame your new farrier and you shouldn’t either. The farrier’s job is to put shoes on and or trim feet not train an unruly animal and risk being put out of work because the animal wasn’t ready to be shod or needed stocks. You are doing the right thing by trying to train him out of it but it sounds like he has some problems. I wouldn’t have taken being bitten as well as you because that is unacceptable behavior as far as I’m concerned. If he behaves well outside then work on him outside. One of my mares needs trimming more frequently than the rest so I usually trim her out in the pasture loose and sometimes she’s grazing at the same time. The other question I have is does he really need shoes? Are his feet bad or are you working on ice and pavement alot? You would still need to be able to trim him but not as much. Good luck I hope you get him over it or you might consider not having him around at a public place.

[sanhestar]

@Rob FLory 6296 wrote:

We started working with him out in the barnyard with one person holding him as the silent partner, doing little more than squaring him. I have been the trainer. I soften him up with some grooming, starting at the shoulders etc. where he really likes it, and working down to the feet. I get a foot up, hold it for a little while, click him, hold it a while longer, give a release command, and put the foot down. We have progressed from 5-10 second lifts with effort to him lifting them on command the majority of the time, and holding them for a minute plus for cleaning and trimming the frog, etc.

Rob,

I see a failure in your logic at what you described there.

In clickertraining it’s stated that the click & treat also means “end of behaviour”. No problem to ask for the same behaviour a few seconds later again, but with the click&treat you release the animal for THIS moment.

So, if you hold his foot up after you clicked him, there’s the chance that he will form wrong behavioural connections. If you want to have him continue with his behaviour = give the foot without resistance, I would introduce a “keep this up” command.

[Donn Hewes]

While I know nothing about clicker training; I found this click in the middle of holding the hoof up a little confusing too. In order to repeat a task based on previous training it seems to me that a constant pattern is needed. Typically, asking for a behavior (different ways to do this), followed by the response, when the task is completed successfully, a release or reward for the animal. this way a horse can predict the results of responding to a familiar request in the usual way will be the normal reward or release. I would have guessed the click was used at the point of release followed by the carrot piece. I guess it could be used in the begin as well, as part of the asking? What does the click really signify?

Is the purpose of clicker training specifically to teach a specific skill to a specific animal that is not learning by other methods or is it to avoid dominating the animal in general. Would it be used to teach all the work skills and habits to the animal? Don’t get me wrong, I am just asking as a curious horse trainer. I have a hard time imagining a good working relationship for me and my animals were I wasn’t completely dominant. I use the word by choice because it pushes so many buttons for people. I will be out of town for a couple days but would find a discussion of how dominance fits into clicker training interesting. Donn

[sanhestar]

Donn,

many people, when first confronted with clickertraining, rely solely on the clicker as the defining instrument of this training method.

But the definining thing of clicker training is “training by positive reinforcement”.

I’m not sure how well you’re into learning behaviour and learning theories.

Basically there is positive reinforcement – something good is added when a wanted behaviour is shown

and negative reinforcement – something bad is added to stop unwanted behaviour

very simply put.

Most horse training methods base heavily on negative reinforcement: adding of pressure until the animal shows a behaviour we want and then letting this pressure go.

f.e. – you want the horse to take a step back: you will either pull on a leash or rein or apply pressure to the nose or tap with a whip or make it pack up through body language and pressure

all of this is basically negative reinforcement – you add pressure to get a response and then release the pressure.

Clicker training is based on the idea to let the animal figure out the solution itself. After the basic introduction of “click” means “treat” you start observing the animal that will, in its desire to earn more treats will start with several responses: it may take a step forward, a step back, paw, shake its head (dogs will also sit or lay down). As soon as you observe the behaviour you want to capture and later adress with a command, you click&treat.

The clicker itself is a tool to provide a neutral praise that won’t transmit any tension or anger on the human part (as voice so often will) and no variations in intonation – it’s the same every time. And with a little practice, the clicker is also faster, just a quick movement of the thumb to create the sound. I tried it and it’s really faster than saying “good” or any other verbal praise. So you can praise/capture very exact movements and later, variations of movements when you step into advanced clicker training, called shaping.

The important thing is that the click ALWAYS and without exception means: TREAT and end of behaviour.

If you later want to cut down on the treats, do not stop giving treats after clicking just cut down on the clicking. First you will click every time you get the wanted behaviour, later maybe every second time and later you will vary and become unpredictable when the treat will be given (not like “will the click will be followed by treat” but more like “will I get a click&treat this time?”)

The theory behind this is that if praise and treat are unpredictable but still occur in intervalls that are short enough to keep the apprehension up, the animal will work for the possibility of the treat. Like we do for a paycheck or gamblers for “the big jackpot”. An often used analogy for clickertrainers is “become a slot machine”.

About dominance: there are good clicker trainers that don’t need dominance because the overall relationship to their animals is that good. What you need – and some people often get that wrong – is a clear set of rules that must not be violated either the animal nor the trainer.

One of the first lessions to teach an animal after having it introduced to the clicker is to teach it not to push/bully for the treat. With dogs f.e. you would set up a bowl with tasty smelling treats in eyesight of the dog; dog on leash; clicker ready. You then position yourself and the dog a bit out of reach of this bowl. The dog will naturally fix the bowl which you will ignore until the dog gives the first indication to look at YOU and not at the treats. Click, you both go to the bowl, dog gets its treat, back to position – repeat.

Similar with horses where you set up the environment f.e. with a gate between you plus treats and the horse and wait for the horse to take a step back before clicking and treating.

Both exercises teach the animal a degree of self control, that you are in control of the resource food and that the animal is expected to “work” for the treat.

On the downside (if you like to call it that) you will get an animal with a very active brain that will have the ability and willingness to work with you through a problem. If you’re used to animals that just respond this can take some time getting used to.

I stop know although the field is much wider and deeper. If you like to, google “Karen Pryor” or check clickertraining.com

[jen judkins]

Here’s the problem I see with clicker training….its not natural for horses.

Don’t get me wrong, I’ve seen people teach dogs and horses to do amazing things with clicker training…I’ve even used it myself to teach ‘spanish walk’ to my TB. It was fun to do too.

But if you watch a herd of horses (which is one of my favorite past times), you will not see the type of positive reinforcement that you are providing with the ‘click and treat’ method. Horses use energy and body language to move and motivate other horses. I believe that people who learn to develope those same communication skills with horses are the most successful with them. Removal of energy or pressure, also known as a ‘release’, IS positive reinforcement to horses.

Horses are not like we are. We (humans) respond positively to reward, recognition and praise, as do dogs. Horses do not need those things to perform happily.

[Hal]

I hope that I am not going off on a tangent here, but I have a question in response to Jen Judkins’ post about positive/negative reinforcement with horses. Is this idea of using body position and movement to provide reinforcement for horses the basis for the practice of training in a “round pen”? I have read some things about round pen training but I am still confused by why it is supposed to work and why horses respond as they do to this method.

[Robert MoonShadow]

If I might add to Hal’s question: I’ve heard that ’round-penning’ doesn’t work near as well with donkeys (too easily bored with it all), and am wondering if anyone who’s had both donkeys and horses here would know? And what about mules? Somewhere between the two in their responses to it or more like one or the other?

[OldKat]

@Hal 6355 wrote:

I hope that I am not going off on a tangent here, but I have a question in response to Jen Judkins’ post about positive/negative reinforcement with horses. Is this idea of using body position and movement to provide reinforcement for horses the basis for the practice of training in a “round pen”? I have read some things about round pen training but I am still confused by why it is supposed to work and why horses respond as they do to this method.

Hal,

My background with horses prior to the first Percheron that I bought in 1987 was with saddle horses, what we called “working horses”. This basically means cow horses, ranch horses or whatever you would call them. My first venture into “work” or draft horses ended suddenly and badly with an early morning lightning strike, so I never had much exposure to the big horses again until I adopted two PMU rescue fillies 4 years ago. I give you this info only so that you will understand that my experiences are NOT decades long with work horses like Plowboy, Carl, Jason and some others have.

At least some round pen work is VERY common with some, maybe most, cow horse trainers. The concept is fairly straight forward; supposedly in wild or even feral herds of horses the dominant mare or mares will discipline the younger (usually male) members of the herd by driving them away whenever their behavior is out of line. The youngsters understand instinctively that they are literally dead meat if they are not part of the band or herd. The cougar or bear or whatever predator is lurking nearby would dearly love to see a lone youngster outside the protection provided by the herd. So they (the youngster) react by demonstrating their “agreement” to behave. They signal this in several ways, twitching their ears, turning an ear to dominant mare, lowering their heads, making licking and chewing motions with their mouths. At some point the dominant mare will signal the youngster that it is okay to rejoin the band, which they are by now anxious to do. They are then “receptive” to whatever it is that keeps them in the good graces of this and other dominant members of the band. They are making a pact by “rejoining” or “joining-up” with the herd. They are saying “Okay, you will be the leader(s) and I will do what you say”

The object of round pen work is to make the trainer the dominant mare or as I call it, the “Boss Hoss”. You send the horse “away”, keeping them moving around the perimeter of the pen until they react as if they were keeping expelled from the herd. The task is to get the trainee to be submissive and accept your role as the Boss Hoss. Once you have achieved this, the training (SUPPOSSEDLY) goes much smoother. As with anything else that you can do in life, this process has its share of proponents and detractors. There are those that say this is “the only way to train”, obviously not true. There are also those that see it as manipulative and counter productive, well I say to them ….????whatever????

I’ve used it, it helps. It is NOT a magic bullet. It is a tool and nothing more. It is one tool in a trainer’s tool box. I can give you more background if you are interested, but that is the view from the 20,000 foot level.

I said all of that to say this; the short answer to your question, is “Yes” … body position and release (along with several other more subtle variables) are key to the process of round pen training. Hope this is clearer than it sounds as I read it!

[jen judkins]

The round pen probably deserves a thread of its own, but in regard to positive and negative reinforcement, I’ll comment…and probably piss some of you off.

The round pen is simply a ‘classroom’ of sorts. It’s roundness levels the playing ground for the human (we’re wimps when it comes to running fast), but allows the horse freedom of movement (albeit in a circle). So done properly both the human and the horse benefit from the configuation in regard to their strengths.

The goals traditionally in the round pen is to use psychology to convince a horse that you can control their movement…change their direction, yield their haunches, move their forehand around, etc. Its been said by sage horsemen that if you can turn a horse around their front end 360 degrees and do the same with the hind end, they will follow you anywhere. Has anyone seen the movie, ‘The Man from Snowy River’? There is a scene where the main horseman is rounding up a big herd of horses…the one where he gallops down a steep incline (I love that scene). Anyway, he catches the herd and turns them all the way around to the left and then to the right. Then they simply follow him home. Horses are born followers and it is simpler than you think to convince them you are a leader.

In more recent times the round pen has taken on less of a ‘human dominating the horse’ to a place where horse and human can learn to communicate better. Its a place to practice what horses do with each other naturally. Horses naturally apply pressure to other horses, generally without emotion and withdraw it instantly (positive reinforcement)when the other horse complies. Many humans, on the other hand, have to get mad (negative reinforcement) to exert any pressure or significant body language, then can’t relax in an effective manner (more negative reinforcement/lack of appropriate positive reinforcement). The result is…well….very bad communication and frequently fear on the part of the horse.

I’ve seen the round pen abused often. A human applying more pressure than is necessary, knowing the horse cannot leave. It can be effective, but it is counter productive in the end, as the horse will exit when they feel they can in another setting.

Put simply a round pen can be an excellent place to teach ourselves the art of applying pressure without emotion and withdrawing it in an instant (like the clicker) when the desired behavior is witnessed or created. Once learned however, the round pen becomes obsolete.

I believe the clicker was originally created to take the emotion out of training…by distracting the trainer. Not a bad goal in and of itself…

Sorry to prattle on…

[OldKat]

@jenjudkins 6370 wrote:

The round pen probably deserves a thread of its own, but in regard to positive and negative reinforcement, I’ll comment…and probably piss some of you off.

The round pen is simply a ‘classroom’ of sorts. It’s roundness levels the playing ground for the human (we’re wimps when it comes to running fast), but allows the horse freedom of movement (albeit in a circle). So done properly both the human and the horse benefit from the configuation in regard to their strengths.

The goals traditionally in the round pen is to use psychology to convince a horse that you can control their movement…change their direction, yield their haunches, move their forehand around, etc. Its been said by sage horsemen that if you can turn a horse around their front end 360 degrees and do the same with the hind end, they will follow you anywhere. Has anyone seen the movie, ‘The Man from Snowy River’? There is a scene where the main horseman is rounding up a big herd of horses…the one where he gallops down a steep incline (I love that scene). Anyway, he catches the herd and turns them all the way around to the left and then to the right. Then they simply follow him home. Horses are born followers and it is simpler than you think to convince them you are a leader.

In more recent times the round pen has taken on less of a ‘human dominating the horse’ to a place where horse and human can learn to communicate better. Its a place to practice what horses do with each other naturally. Horses naturally apply pressure to other horses, generally without emotion and withdraw it instantly (positive reinforcement)when the other horse complies. Many humans, on the other hand, have to get mad (negative reinforcement) to exert any pressure or significant body language, then can’t relax in an effective manner (more negative reinforcement/lack of appropriate positive reinforcement). The result is…well….very bad communication and frequently fear on the part of the horse.

I’ve seen the round pen abused often. A human applying more pressure than is necessary, knowing the horse cannot leave. It can be effective, but it is counter productive in the end, as the horse will exit when they feel they can in another setting.

Put simply a round pen can be an excellent place to teach ourselves the art of applying pressure without emotion and withdrawing it in an instant (like the clicker) when the desired behavior is witnessed or created. Once learned however, the round pen becomes obsolete.

I believe the clicker was originally created to take the emotion out of training…by distracting the trainer. Not a bad goal in and of itself…

Sorry to prattle on…

I think you sort of got to the same point I did, you just said it better.

[jen judkins]

I think we were typing at the same time:D

[Hal]

Those were really interesting responses. That gives me a new outlook on the round pen idea; I didn’t know that it was so grounded in horse psychology.

Jen, why would your explanation annoy some people on the forum?

[Rob FLory]

I have been clicking the horse while the foot is up, and holding it some more, so that the horse does not learn that the click is the release command. I may be wrong, but that is the thinking. In any case, I’ve got the horse lifting his feet on command.

Yes, the horse needs to be shod. At least he does in winter when we are working on ice. We’ll be shoeing the fronts only for the growing season.

When the horse bit, I could have struck him, but that would not have improved his attitude about working with his feet in the stall. I did not retreat and show him that I was afraid of him.

Round pen training is great, but I’m not convinced that a dominance-based method is the best way to deal with fear. There is a lot of variation of psychology in horses. I think there is room for many tools in the training box.

Dominance is very important, but I think what we are dealing with is a horse who is afraid because dominance was applied unwisely.

I’ll report further as it goes.

Rob

[sanhestar]

Rob,

and that’s where your logic is wrong. The click is meant as a release signal, every time.

If you want to teach the horse to show a behaviour over a longer period of time you may want to introduce a “keep up with what you’re doing” signal (mentioned it before) and build step by step that the behaviour is shown over a longer period of time before it’s released by the clicker.

[Author]

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