Fear Memories in Horses

[jen judkins]

@Rob FLory 6380 wrote:

Round pen training is great, but I’m not convinced that a dominance-based method is the best way to deal with fear. There is a lot of variation of psychology in horses. I think there is room for many tools in the training box.

Dominance is very important, but I think what we are dealing with is a horse who is afraid because dominance was applied unwisely.

I’m glad you brought that up, Rob, as my response to round penning did not take into account your original post:rolleyes:.

Horses have their own agenda in regard to cooperating with humans. They need to feel safe before you can effectively use energy and pressure to communicate with them. This is why, when you went back to the stall, your horse’s behavior regressed so badly. You can use round penning to get a fearful horse less fearful…of you, their trainer…or of a scarey object like ropes, saddles or rasp…but that doesn’t appear to be the problem here. So I think you are right, the round pen will not help you with this problem. And I also agree that dominance, applied with agression, definately leads to these unwanted behavioral issues, unfortunately.

I would hazard a guess that you will likely never be able to shoe this horse in a stall. Why would you want to anyway? Why re-create a scarey situation for him when you can shoe him somewhere else?

[jen judkins]

@Hal 6377 wrote:

Jen, why would your explanation annoy some people on the forum?

I don’t really like most forms of round penning. I think the round pen is misused, more often than not.

There are many people (not necessarily here on this forum) who abuse their advantage in the round pen to dominate a horse without considering the horses’ need for safety and comfort. Being in a round pen with a horse can feel like a very powerful tool. The trainer has alot of leverage over the horse and this power can be very easily misused.

I tried to keep that ‘tone’ out of my response, in an effort to remain objective…apparently successfully…so maybe I am getting better at this forum talk:cool:

[Carl Russell]

There is a difference between dominance, and indomitability. Humans often get this wrong. We think to control a situation we need to dominate the participants, by being stronger and manipulating them into submission. In nature leaders are indomitable. They are not pushed around by those less able to protect and guide the herd, or pack. A “dominant” horse does not look for a subordinate who needs to be straightened out, they respond to the insubordination by reaffirming their own sense of the order required for success.

When working with horses, I find the key is to have initiative, and to utilize the body language, pressure/release process to maintain that. In other words when a horse goes along with me, I reward them by doing nothing, or at least perhaps praise, but basically demonstrating my acceptance of their behavior. It is when their behavior is not what I want that I apply enough pressure (whatever form it takes) to get them back into line, and then reward.

In the case of fear, or resistance to an expectation, I disregard the fear, and approach the animal as I expect it to allow me. If they are aggressive, or retreat, I do not let that phase me. It doesn’t mean that I apply pressure, but I am not there to cause fear, and they need me to show them that. By allowing them to show fear, or aggression as the “last word” is not a possibility, so I would keep working around them until I get the slightest indication of relaxation/trust from them and then release them. This would be in the barn yard, or in the stall. By watching them closely I can see the point at which as I am approaching them that my presence causes discomfort, and that is the limit of the pressure that I will assert for a while, until I can push a little more.

The biting in the stall when handling the foot can be a wicked eye-opener. I’ve had that same bite. I would work on the stable manners first. Determine that pressure point by experimentation. That experimentation is the initiative, and just being there applying some proximity pressure will begin to address that. Just because an animal has developed a habit of fear from earlier handling, should not put parameters on how you expect to handle the animal, it could also be an opportunity that a smart horse has seized upon to try to get their own way.

My instinct is that their are two things going on here, trust, and behavior. Trying to deal with both at the same time can be pretty complex, and I would break them down. Get the trust, then work on behavior.

The one thing I can see about clicker training is that all horses have the inclination to be indomitable. In other words in the natural hierarchy when given the chance to not live as a subordinate, they will do that. I can see that the clicker training is designed to bring that animal out, which is very different than the animal that comes out of a “dominance” oriented relationship based on submission.

I must say that I don’t want submissive horses either, and although I must be indomitable in my own initiative, I believe that I can produce a relationship with my horses that comes pretty darn close to partnership, without needing submission, but by affirming leadership.

Carl

[sanhestar]

@Carl Russell 6396 wrote:

The one thing I can see about clicker training is that all horses have the inclination to be indomitable. In other words in the natural hierarchy when given the chance to not live as a subordinate, they will do that. I can see that the clicker training is designed to bring that animal out, which is very different than the animal that comes out of a “dominance” oriented relationship based on submission.

Carl,

I think that only a small percentage of horses or dogs or cattle or sheep or whatever is born to be THE one to lead and protect a herd (being mentally able for it and being groomed into this task by another herd leader). But every animal that experiences that it can’t trust the human it bonded with to keepi it safe will look to take leadership for its own protection. Wether it’s mentally fit for that or not (and in that case often developing problematic behaviour).

[Carl Russell]

Quote:

I think that only a small percentage of horses or dogs or cattle or sheep or whatever is born to be THE one to lead and protect a herd (being mentally able for it and being groomed into this task by another herd leader).

Perhaps given the hierarchy of a herd, yes, very few will be inclined to take the initiative, but without the herd they have to be able to use their own initiative, thus developing their own sense of indomitability. By using the clicker and treat, you are in effect “grooming” the animal to use it’s own initiative toward the appropriate behavior for any given situation. All my point was that an animal groomed to express its own initiative is much more courageous than one conditioned to submissive behavior. (I was not trying to criticize clicker training, but trying to express what I think I can see to be a benefit)

Carl

[jen judkins]

@Carl Russell 6396 wrote:

I must say that I don’t want submissive horses either, and although I must be indomitable in my own initiative, I believe that I can produce a relationship with my horses that comes pretty darn close to partnership, without needing submission, but by affirming leadership.

I like the way this is put. As I was cleaning up the paddock and feeding tonight, I was thinking about dominance…what it is and what it isn’t. As I pulled the wheel barrow around I observed that my horses accept my presence without feeling the need to move unless I ask them to. It occured to me that the relationship we have is not a reactive one. In otherwords, I have become trustworthy enough, for them to accept my presence and wait for my initiative. In moving them out of my way, I, in no way, feel dominant…I simply feel like the one who chooses how things work. Its easy…I make a suggestion and they comply.

[Donn Hewes]

Well I feel a little guilty throwing out the word ‘dominate’, and then taking off for a couple of days. I enjoyed what everyone said though. I like to use the word because it brings out so many reactions that lead to good discussions about what is the relationship we really want with our animals. I don’t think of it as being negative at all. The dictionary says it means “to govern, control, or rule.” I think there are a lot of semantics with all these words but to me it just means to be in charge. I want to learn from my teams, I want to be able to read their input into situations we get into, I rely on them in many ways; but I am the decider(:rolleyes:!!!).

These thoughts bring me back to my idea (mentioned in other threads) of developing the attributes of beginning teamsters. I know from many experiences in my life (including working many years as a professional firefighter, mountain climber, and farmer) that anyone can be promoted, or voted in charge; but it takes quite a set of skills to be a good leader.

I think pressure applied carefully is simply a clear and direct way of letting an animal know what we are asking for. (Why would you apply pressure any other way — when you ask someone to do something for you, do you say please?) That is why we try to use the same tone and words each time. Saying “step up” with a kiss, is pressure. Pure and simple. In all my training, rope halter, round pen, in a stall, loose or hitched; I seldom use more pressure than that. Donn

[Rob FLory]

We plan on it.

I would like to be able to pick out his feet in the stall, though.

Rob

[Rob FLory]

Roger, it’s on.

Outside the barn, I say, “foot”, touch it, and he picks it up, and I can hold it and clean, trim etc. for a minute at a time, no problem.

In the stall, give the command, reach for the foot, and he freaks out. Other than biting, he has also tried to turn and cow kick, but he doesn’t have room.

Donn and Jenn, We are all striving for a relationship with our horses in which they work with minimal pressure. But what do we do when that is not enough? It is not really a “suggestion” when there is a correct response, is it?. A suggestion implies that compliance is optional.

Rob

[jen judkins]

@Rob FLory 6475 wrote:

Donn and Jenn, We are all striving for a relationship with our horses in which they work with minimal pressure. But what do we do when that is not enough? It is not really a “suggestion” when there is a correct response, is it?. A suggestion implies that compliance is optional.

Rob, again my comments probably did not take into account your ‘specific’ issue, just random thoughts about leadership. Its not that I don’t have some issues with my horses as well, and you are right…when there is opposition, a suggestion is not good enough (because I don’t want my horses to choose the wrong answer);). We have to be effective with our intention, then follow through to the correct response. Its hard sometimes…I’m certainly not getting any younger. When teaching Reno to stand still for his shots…in the beginning I had to stay with him, applying pressure until he stopped moving….its definately not easy sometimes. Thankfully he is not a biter:eek:.

In my opinion, it is consistency that teaches a horse to depend on you or believe you are trustworthy. That will vary from trainer to trainer, but the regular use of consistent pressure and release, should produce trust. And trust (ie safety) should create a working relationship that allows you to teach whatever it is you want. Without the trust, however, you will need to resort to force, which, if I have read your comments correctly, will not serve your end result.

In regard to your specific problem….I would forget about handling this horses feet in his stall….for now. Everytime you do and he freaks out, you lose his trust (and you get hurt). Concentrate on what works and not on what doesn’t. When you are shoeing him without problem in the yard, then you can consider working on handling him in the stall. Forget the agenda as much as possible and focus on the relationship. Push the envelope, yes…but don’t go so far that he loses confidence. Most people with a specific problem feel they have to push the horse past the issue. But in reality, sometimes all it takes is waiting for the horse to relax and reconsider. Then quit. This is where understanding horse body language comes in handy.

Just yesterday, I was approaching one of my foster horses with a syringe of meds. He moved away from me (wrong answer), I continued to approach, until I saw the hint that he might turn and face me. Before he could turn, I left the enclosure completely and went to do something else. When I returned some time later, he was waiting and I gave him his drench without any opposition. My point is, that sometimes you have to give up the plan to make progress. It may not be something you are in a position to do…I don’t know. I’m certainly not working my horses day in and out for a living, so take my thoughts with a grain, if you will.

I look forward to hearing more about your progress.

[Carl Russell]

Rob FLory;6475 wrote:

… We are all striving for a relationship with our horses in which they work with minimal pressure. But what do we do when that is not enough? It is not really a “suggestion” when there is a correct response, is it?. A suggestion implies that compliance is optional….

Rob, remember it is not the pressure as much as it is release. When a horse follows your lead you reward them by showing no pressure. The suggestion is to follow, but the pressure escalates if the response is not acceptable. But in some instances increased pressure will not get the desired response.

In your case, if you can get the shoes on outdoors that should help, but I don’t think that that is going to translate to the stall.

I would watch the horse when you enter the stall. He must be telegraphing to you that you have reached his comfort point. Head up, ears back, tension. He’s biting when you pick up the foot, because you have gone past that point, and he is trying to get rid of you.

Just your presence is pressure enough in that case. When you enter the stall, watch for that first sign of wariness. That is the point where you need to linger, until, as Jenn described above, you get the slightest inclination that he is getting comfortable with you there, then leave. Just continue this pressure and release moving closer and closer to the foot, but never try to push past his comfort point. This horse has obviously learned that he can hurt or scare a human out of his stall, so it will take a lot of patience to get him to really trust you there.

Once he understands that you are aware of his comfort zone, and that you respect it, that you are no threat, AND you have intention for his behavior, then you should be able to push the envelope a little bit more all the time.

He may feel too much restraint in the stall, so he’s more comfortable outside.

Do you have someone at his head when outside? That may be another reason for the different behavior.

Carl

[becorson]

Once a horse (or other animal) has a fear-filled experience, the way to get him over it is to allow him to have the experience and NOT feel any fear. this can be hard to accomplish with a big animal like a Belgian, especially if the procedure is at all painful or uncomfortable. if the horse has any joint problems (and many middle aged or older horses do) picking up a foot and holding it up long enough to reset a shoe is likely to be uncomfortable if not actually painful. a patient trusting animal will be able to adopt a “this too shall pass” attitude and tolerate the discomfort but an anxious or fearful animal will not. might be worth considering a touch of “chemical restraint” to take the edge of his anxiety ?? (just my 2 cents’ worth)

[Rob FLory]

Horse bit again, out of the stall, while being unhitched from a manure spreader.

Sold him. He had some other issues like jumping out of pastures that made him a challenge.

Carrying on with my oxen for the hard work and the old horse that the biting horse was to replace for the precise work.

Rob
PS, after all, it is the year of the ox.

[Gabe Ayers]

Good call on your part. If a horse ever bites me it would be war and they learn that from an early age. If you buy a mature horse that has this habit it may be hard to break. There are more horses out there today than there are people that want to work them, so just get another one and get back to work.

Good luck.

[Robert MoonShadow]

My only thought on this is whether you disclosed this information to the new buyer? Elsewise, someone – perhaps an inexperienced “newbie” – just bought unknowingly into a seriously hazardous problem; maybe one beyond their ability to handle. These, too, are the things horse owners are judged by, by the general population.
Just curious – NOT an accusation.

[Author]

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