Frosted grazing??

[Mark Cowdrey]

I seem to recall hearing an admonition against turning horses out on frosted forage. Since we finally got our first frost last night (central NH) I’m wondering. Anyone heard of this? If so, is it an old wives tale?

Thanks,

Mark

[jen judkins]

Geez, I hope its a fable. My horses were out there early this am staring at the grass waiting for the sun to warm it up, lol. I generally take them off it though after the first hard frost…just too busy to shut all the gates today. They don’t eat it anyway once its been frosted more than once or twice in my experience. Looked like snow at my place this am…a sign of things to come I guess. Jennifer.

[Neil Dimmock]

Mine dont come in until the snow gets to deep to dig, theres hay outn for them but there just as happy grazing instead. guess frost dont hurt to much
Neil

[Andrew]

This is interesting, because we just had a horse come down with a bit of a bellyache early last week. We’ve been grazing our second cut of hay here, as first cut was a bit late given the wet weather this summer. pretty lush stuff. I had been cautious in turning the horses out on it with the cows, but for the past month everything was ok. Then last week when we moved them to the next paddock one of our horses started to get sweaty and irritable. This was just after our first few hard frosts this fall. I had been wondering if the frost had been a factor? So, we moved the horses back a paddock ( really hadn’t been eaten down completely) for a few days while the cows topped the fresh paddock for a few days. We’re pretty new to the ins and outs of grazing horses, but I have heard of using them as cleanup behind cattle. I guess this is why. I think the difference may be that this grass is still very succulent and has lots of alterable sugars still available( if that makes any sense?).

[Jean]

This quote is from

http://www.livestocktrail.uiuc.edu/horsenet/paperDisplay.cfm?ContentID=9964

“Don’t allow horses to graze frosted pastures. Frosted pastures have higher levels of fructans because the plants can still photosynthesize, but growth is diminished, so high levels of the sugars build up that don’t get used for growth.”

This is one of the items suggested to combat grass founder in horses and ponys that are predisposed to it.

[Neil Dimmock]

Funny after a 150 years or so of grazing fall grass and no sick horses!! ever in the fall, and up to two hunderd head of them, maybe its what your putting on the grass, LIKE fertilizer which can raise the level of nitrates which can cause sweating and colic, we use non of that and no sick horses!! yum??
Neil

[Jean]

Frosted grass according to what I posted is only bad if you have a horse that has a problem with sugars. That same horse would be more likely to founder in the spring with the lush grass. If your horses do not have issues already then they will probably be ok. Same as people with diabetes. I can eat all the sugar I want, but my friend Lucy could die from a pretty small amount.

[Neil Dimmock]

(“Don’t allow horses to graze frosted pastures)!! Humm!! OK.
Neil

[jen judkins]

Neil, I don’t think Jean was saying to never graze a horse on fall pasture, just that if you HAVE CONCERNS about a horse (say, because they are prone to founder) it wouldn’t be a good idea. The original poster I believe had some concerns about the grass for his horses. I made a flippent remark, but it is true that I, myself have a fat mini, that has to be locked in the barn spring and fall to avoid pasture laminitis, so the issue is real for some horses.

I do believe, however, that horses who have as natural a lifestyle as possible, who have enough acreage to move and live in a herd where the social hierarchy is preserved will not be likely to have issues with any pasture arrangement. It is when you limit movement, limit free choice feeds and minerals that horses get out of whack and get metabolic. So, Neil, its no surprise you have not had issues, given your acreage and turnout arrangement (from your photos, looks like everyone is out together as a herd). Down here in the lower 50, space it more of an issue and so are a number of other problems, lol. Jennifer.

[LaNette]

While I don’t know about the vegetative concerns to grazing after the frost in New Hampshire, here in southeast New Mexico we occasionally get a few horse deaths due to prussic acid poisoning from Johnson grass after the first frost. Our county extension agent will tell you that prussic acid poisoning can occur at any time of the year but our local veterinarian sees prussic acid poisoning only after the first frost. We think it due to several factors. One of which is there is no other forage to graze on (because the good grass and other browse is, by that time, in decline) but the remnant Johnson grass that grows nears troughs and water spigots is still green and available. Another is that many people hold off as long as they can before feeding supplemental hay for the winter forcing the horses to eat plants, like Johnson grass, they would otherwise avoid.

In short, that may explain where the idea that you remove animals from the pasture after the first frost came from. Around here, people have little choice in the matter and horses and other livestock stay out on pasture year-around.

I’ve managed my pasture (as best as I can under the circumstances) so as to not have Johnson grass. I don’t remove my horse or mules from it after the first frost. First frost around here averages somewhere around the first to mid-November. I also supplement with hay as needed.

[Mark Cowdrey]

Thanks for all the input.
It’s funny, I was under hte assumption that any bad effects were only a result of them eating forage with the frost actually on it, not post-frosting. So I had been turning mine out after things had warmed up w/ no ill effects. They have been on grass for some period of most every day all summer.

[Neil Dimmock]

There sure would not be many wild horses left if a little frost killed!
Neil

[simon lenihan]

my horses are out all year round and while we do not get as severe a frost as you do we will still get 10 below at times with no effect on the horses.
simon lenihan

[dominiquer60]

A few thought related to frosted grazing.

I suspect that horses which have adapted to their natural environment (wild horses) or a well simulated natural environment (Neil’s pastures) and have been bred for such are not prone to problems with frosted grass. I would suspect that horses and ponies that have adverse reactions to frosted grass are of poorer genetics in terms of being easy keepers.

I really don’t mean to offend anyone by this, but strictly from a evolutionary sense, the equines that react are likely to have been bred for artificial human wants rather than survival of the fittest needs. Again no offense, Jen, your mini has a family tree that humans have tinkered with to the point such an animal cannot survive in the environment that it was originally intended to. Minis are bred mainly for the characteristic of being small. The intolerance of frosted grass sugars was either ignored or unrealized due to artificial management off grass pastures. It is not your mini’s fault, its just that breeding for year round pasture grazing was not a priority when some one was trying to breed small cute horses.

Horses are not the only animals that we have effected in this manner. Modern medicine and technology have taken us from “survival of the fittest” to a cushy world (for industrialized countries anyway) where the weak survive and breed, causing more humans to have ailments. We treat these people and low and behold we wonder why there are so many chronically sick people in our world today, because we keep tampering with nature. We are not all meant to survive to old age, look at the average life expectancy of humans only 100 years ago, we are living too long.

Given my own family, My brother could have died from Asthma when he was a kid, but thanks to modern medicine, today he is a talented auto mechanic. However my brother and I may have never come to be, my father had polio when he was seven, and again, the doctors saved him. There is a good chance that 100 years ago I would not exist, 200 years ago highly unlikely.

I think that this thread may have brought up a good point about breeding programs. As caretakers of equines, cattle and all other livestock and poultry, we really need to ask ourselves what our goals are before we let the stud in with the ladies. Do we want an animal that can survive in a natural setting, are we willing to manage an animal in an artificial setting if we breed for enhanced (unnatural) characteristics such as size and speed. If your goals include having a low maintenance animal that can live in a pasture year round, you best make sure that the parents can do so before you let them breed.

It seems that many of us on this site have the goals of living as sustainably as possible or comfortable. I think that part of making sure that we and others can make it with animals and animal power is to be responsible and breed quality stock. If it doesn’t meet your needs don’t breed it.

Erika

[Marchand]

Aight….Return th’ Village Idiot….
Homework’s:
read’n Wm. Faulkner…”Count No-Count”, as deemed by the Old..& in the Way…personal/relation 80+/&more year friend…. tip’d more’n a few with Faulkner….who’s a Hanger-On/Wanna-Be…never rode out front in the Chase..couldn’t set straddle’d to be among th’ Hounds in the
Chase…My Life’s been There…..but…he wrote crap that won Nobel’s…& while his ol’ Lady paid th’ Bills…& bless his Heart…died try’n to take some Jumps…Said several few things..that transecend’d the Bone Yard ….& they all stank of Whiskey….but……….
1…One…wuz’:…. “If a True Writer must steal from his own Mother to Write…He WILL…cause: “True Writers” are RARE……….& Ol’ Womenz’…is….a dime-a-dozen….”

But:..Neil’ll pull my Trigger…& Back-n-Forth….Wild Horses?….Now…we Down-Home…Cultural Mecca of the Universe…Birth-Place of th’ Blues & Rock-n-Roll….here….ain’t inseminate’d no cheese or nut’n?.. my Chicaza Ancestors took these horse from de Soto in 1540:
http://www.weldonmerchant.com/potawaxxgj.html

Neil….you quite a mucha’ Man…& I ‘ll buy ya’ Bus ticket….for th’ Privilege…of you come’n South & whoop’n my Azz….if you ‘ang stand in Line….I just ain’t never develop’d much Respect….for very many 2-leg’d’s…but back-2-zero here…”You still just drive’nest Son of (Excuse-Me)…I a…bout ever seen….

But:….Would ya’ put 1/2 their body weight on they back & run 55 miles in mountain country…when it was only they’s Mama’s that’d ever seen a rock bigger’n a terrapin???…..oh…yeah….lil’ pony was on grass……………my Dawg’ screw’d up my side bets on this Race…left me @ 40-some miles..took an extra 15 mile loop…..& was @ truck 2 hours before I drug my ol’ flinty azz in…useta’ be’n @ Home…I guess?..1/2 a Century & +…it’s God’s Own Teach’n Me…All-Day…Every-Day….XX

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