frustrating day with the boys

[Andy Carson]

You are right, Tim, that I am feeling a little defensive. My heart does not like being heavy handed, but my brain tells me that sometimes I have to be… I don’t want to get all “mushy,” but I suppose this is the “diary” section… I also feel a little defensive because I feel proud of what we have accomplished in the last few weeks. Over a dozen good sessions and one bad one. Actually, only the end of yesterdays session was bad, but it was very bad. It would be dishonest to mention all the good times and not talk about the challenges.

Looking back over the posts, I suppose I was arguing with things that weren’t exactly said. Perhaps they were between the lines, perhaps they weren’t even meant. Sometimes things get misunderstood. I was arguing with what I understood to be the statement that if I or my team gets frustrated (irreguardless of fault), I should put them out in the field. I was also arguing with the idea that if they refuse to “stand-over,” I should ask them to “come” and when they do then put them out in the field. I was arguing with the concept that if there is a fight (irreguardless of who starts it) than I should put them out in the field. In truth, looking over the comments, I am not sure if these were actually the suggestions, but they were what I read. All these ideas did run through my mind at the time. They all seemed damn attractive, and a heck of a lot easier than sticking to my guns and making them follow the rules.

I think that in a very general sense, the advice is to ask for simple and easy tasks so as to build a trusting foundation for future success. Best to sometimes push them to the limit of what they can do, but not beyond. Make sure they understand the task at hand before you ratchet up pressure. Try to be as light as possible. I agree with all this.

[Lanny Collins]

Andy, keep up the good work. Sometimes it is easy for some to armchair quarterback specific incidents. In general, principles I think most can agree but on specific incidents it is best to follow your instincts. Only you know your animals best.

[mitchmaine]

@Countymouse 33546 wrote:

Over a dozen good sessions and one bad one. Actually, only the end of yesterdays session was bad, but it was very bad.

hi andy,
what if the one bad session was actually the good one? what if you looked at it like all the good sessions were ok, but it was the bad session that actually taught you something about your critters or yourself as teamster? you have to have good sessions or you might not keep at it, but it is the challenges that get you thinking. maybe?

[grey]

When I back myself into a corner with my horses, it is always always accompanied by an embarassing amount of temper on my part. Usually, in retrospect, I can pinpoint a crucial moment and say, “There’s where I really screwed up.” Occasionally, however, I’m not really sure where the tipping-point was.

Sometimes I realize that I came to the job with my head on backwards that day and the horses were unable to compensate for/ignore my distraction. The worst, though, is when I feel like I’m having a great day, everyone is in synch, and a horse does something seemingly out of the blue for apparantly no other reason than to test me. The disappointment can get me pretty bent out of shape if I don’t catch it in time.

Depending on what my own mindset is like that day, what we’re doing, how the horses are feeling, what the potential consequences are, there are a number of different tacts I might take to try to get compliance. Sometimes it’s a scolding, sometimes a smack, sometimes a cajoling, sometimes a distracting ruse. Choosing the right approach for the situation can be difficult for me when I’m pissed. Hey, when you’ve got a hammer, everything’s a nail.

My smarter horses sometimes rebel when they feel insulted by what they perceive to be pointless repetition or excessive nit-picking. Of course, once I ask them to do something it would be undermining my authority to allow them to decline to obey. The obvious work-around there is to be careful what I ask for. If I ask for something repetitive in the line of work, I don’t seem to get the flak that I do if I demand a similar amount of tedium in a training situation. They feel the difference in the intent with which I approach the task and there must be an element of aimlessness to the training repetitive motions versus the ones necessary to complete a job.

I find that when I ask for something from my horses and they don’t give it to me, that I have messed up somewhere. I have missed something. I didn’t notice the subtle clue that told me the horse was getting bored or was distracted. I didn’t correct the horse earlier on some minor detail and now it has escalated. I asked for something in a way the horse did not understand. I asked for something the horse was physically incapable of doing. There’s always a reason but figuring out what it was is sometimes an exercise in futility.

Not being me and not being my animals, I don’t have any answers for the situation you found yourself in that day. I do know that when my own temper flares it always means I’ve screwed up somewhere.

[J-L]

Well put Grey. I think that working with animals at times is as frustrating as it can be rewarding. Temper is something I always have to work on and watch. Especially this time of year when fatigue and sleep deprivation helps me out.
Don’t know the first thing about working cattle in a yoke, but have worked with many, many beef cattle. I still say anyone who can make those good ox teams is blessed with something I don’t have. I do love to watch videos of working cattle. Amazes me every time.
Guess the only thing I can say is keep at it and remember what your reward will be.

[Tim Harrigan]

@mitchmaine 33549 wrote:

…what if the one bad session was actually the good one? what if you looked at it like all the good sessions were ok, but it was the bad session that actually taught you something about your critters or yourself as teamster? you have to have good sessions or you might not keep at it, but it is the challenges that get you thinking. maybe?

Mitch, you got that exactly right.

[Andy Carson]

@grey 33550 wrote:

My smarter horses sometimes rebel when they feel insulted by what they perceive to be pointless repetition or excessive nit-picking. Of course, once I ask them to do something it would be undermining my authority to allow them to decline to obey. The obvious work-around there is to be careful what I ask for. If I ask for something repetitive in the line of work, I don’t seem to get the flak that I do if I demand a similar amount of tedium in a training situation. They feel the difference in the intent with which I approach the task and there must be an element of aimlessness to the training repetitive motions versus the ones necessary to complete a job.

Good point, I think this was a big part of his rebelling. I also really appreciate Mitch’s point about a “bad” session being an opportunity to learn. I think for me this is a transformative way of thinking about training difficulties. Thanks all for the thoughts and support.

[Carl Russell]

@Countymouse 33541 wrote:

I think this is key to how to react to this situation. Did he not understand or was he being defiant? Hard to know without being there and without knowing this particular ox. He’s a very very smart ox and only needs taught something once when it is something he wants to do, or something in his advantage. Even though I know he can learn something in one lesson I still give him several to make sure it’s in his head well. He had just finished “standing over” at least a dozen times with no problems, which is a very strong indication that he knew what it meant……

I am not arm-chairing, but trying to help you understand what you have described…….

You KNOW he KNOWS how to “stand over”…….. so why did you think you needed to educate him about it again????

If he knows the response, and you describe that he clearly does, then why is he not following it?

I have never actually observed an animal acting on premeditated malevolence. I am not sure that an animal actually has anything to gain from that, especially one that has been imprinted and socialized to working with humans. I have observed that animals’ responses are much more momentary, and usually relate to present stimuli, and not some deeper intellectual decision making.

I did not mean that he was confused about how to stand over, I think he was more likely confused about the leadership.

If he is confused about the command, or the direction, or the accompanying body language, he might act confused, but he also might just not comply. This may seem to be defiance, and might actually be defiance, but from my experience, it is still most likely related to the way he is interpreting the command.

I suggest that the frustration really roots from the disconnect in his attention to your command, and in your execution of the command, and not from a need to teach him how to “stand over”….. especially when you are frustrated, or with him tied in the barn. You want him to “stand over” when in yoke, attached to the sled (or whatever) with a confident comfortable voice and a minimal physical effort on your part.

It is my instinct, based entirely on past experiences (having absolutely no personal knowledge about your exact situation), and yes based on the same kind of frustration-driven episodes, that a step back to evaluate the process of communication, and the level of subtlety, or lack thereof, of assertion to elicit the desired response would be a good exercise.

I pass no judgement on what happened, I have spent a lot of time going back over my own share of these experiences, and invariably they come back to communication……

Success with any command can be increased by practicing pressure and release …..assertion and response….. at even the simplest level. When the animal learns to comfortably and consistently follow the teamster’s direction it is immaterial what actual command they are following. When they learn to trust and follow the communication, they will never forget that.

Sometimes it is difficult to separate the working action from communication, but I have found that it can be a very important exercise for the teamster.

Carl

[Tim Harrigan]

Andy, I suppose we are all armchair quarterbacks when we post here, but you have received a lot of good suggestions for moving ahead and most of them are in some way about the communication with the animals and the leadership that makes the team work. One of the hardest things to accept with oxen is that you may hold the whip, but you are not really the leader until you demonstrate your trustworthiness to the team and they acknowledge your leadership. Most everyone here at least alluded the challenge of dealing with frustration and anger when the animals seem to resist your will. It is hard to accept that when you see yourself as the leader and you see their resistance as a threat to your leadership. But communication is not just you directing and them snapping to. They are also trying to communicate with you, sometimes in subtle ways, some more obvious like kicking at you and running away. It is not weak leadership to be open to that communication and demonstrate your willingness to bend or redefine your goals or objectives. This is challenging in two ways, 1) you have to be attentive and open to that type of communication, 2) you have to interpret it correctly (do I adjust or insist). That is part of the humility that Carl mentioned.

This communication is the thing that you can not rush. We have all had days like you described. A lot of them. The key thing is how you move forward, how you assess the activities, your feelings, how you asserted leadership, how they reacted, when did it become clear that they were uncomfortable with the pressure that you applied and so on. Then of course, how do you draw on that experience to become a better teamster. That is the difference between a teamster with a year of experience versus someone with one day’s experience 365 times in a row.

One caution, we use the pointed goad sparingly to mainly help the team learn to not crowd us. Be judicious and fair in the application.

[Author]

Posts