ground drive pto carts

[kris fraser]

does any have one what have you used it on would it run a baler i saw one in use at the field days and have been very interested ever since. any info from people who have used one would be appriciated

[Donn Hewes]

There are a couple of problems with ground driven PTO’s that have prevented there wider use (so far). I have never owned one but I helped friends with an Elmo Reed (the state of the art then – not made any more) many years ago, and have always paid close attention to them at HP days. These are the problems as I see them.
First, the carts work well for all the lighter kinds of work like raking, tedding, etc. These jobs can all be done well without any PTO. Now a heavier cart with more traction is needed to do work like mowing with a haybine or baling. A lighter cart is more likely to loose traction on these jobs. A heavier cart is less appealing for the lighter work.
Second problem, you need extra horses. Four horses can pull a ground driven PTO cart and a baler, but four horses can pull a gas/desiel powered PTO cart, and a baler, and a wagon load of hay. This sounds like I want to trade horses for gas, which I don’t but we all have to decide what we think is efficient. I believe I will stop useing gas to make hay eventually and I think I will do it with loose hay, not a ground driven PTO cart.
I don’t say this to discourage anyone from trying to make one work. These are just some of that thoughts I had over the years as I looked at how I made hay, how I wanted to make hay next year, and how I might make hay in the future.

[Crabapple Farm]

I haven’t used one but was also checking out the I&J pto forecart at the field days in Tunbridge. I would second Donn – don’t expect that cart to power a baler. It looks like a nice piece of equipment, but I don’t think it would work for that. A pto rake, tedder, manure spreader, sicklebar, or such would be appropriate implements to get it for.
I was down in lancaster recently at an auction and noticed that the prefered hay mowing setup in that area, as far as I could tell from the equipment being sold, was trailed PTO driven sickle bars and a separate roller/crimper (I believe also PTO). An extra trip around the field, yes, but lighter work for the horses.
Talking with the guy who was selling the I&J pto cart at Tunbridge, we were both kicking ourselves for having recently purchased ground drive spreaders. We both have tractors too, and the idea of using a pto spreader with a team but also being able to unload it stationary with the tractor for making compost seems great.
And yes, all the lighter implements which that cart would power can be found in ground-driven versions. But depending where you are, it might be tricky to find them. The PTO option expands the places you can shop for equipment.
-Tevis

[Rod]

I would like to see the plans for the dump cart. Thanks.

[ngcmcn]

The I&J Gd forecart is being used for balers but needs added tractor weights, and cleated wheels with a gang of at least four on the pole. This wouldn’t work for me in small little windy Me. fields i hay.

N.

[Neil Dimmock]

Used them and Love them, way better than some old engine banging and smoking away, some just can’t believe that ground drive work so well but watch mowers go around and around or spreaders or binders or etc, sure it take more horses but isn’t that what we do drive horses, 4 will bale and pull a haybine but six do it better and way more fun to drive!! AND NO MOTORS!!
Neil

[OldKat]

@kris fraser 1109 wrote:

does any have one what have you used it on would it run a baler i saw one in use at the field days and have been very interested ever since. any info from people who have used one would be appriciated

Way outside the box thinking I know, but is there any possibility of using a speed multiplier (gear driven or otherwise) on a forecart to operate a 12V generator? The reason I ask; if you could keep a 12V battery charged & couple it with a high torque electric motor could you not replace the hydraulic cylinder, or use the electric motor to operate the hydraulic cylinder, on implements like plows or discs that need to be lifted at the turn row or in leaving the field for transport? I could envision an energy center that could be modular in design so it could be quickly mounted on various implements, but keeping the battery charged stumps me. Wouldn’t work in an application like a hay swather or baler that is in continuous service while in the field, but might work for intermittent service applications. Thoughts?

[416Jonny]

Of course you could do it. You can do just about damned near anything with electricity if you feel like it, or feel like spending the money.

The system would end up working like a hydraulic three point hitch cart (since electricity and water end up acting in very similiar manners) by accumulating energy, either by use of pressure (hydraulic) or voltage (electricity).

There is a system out there that uses a forecart and a special three point trailer behind it that uses electricity, only it gets charged by being plugged in.

Setting up a charging system is beyond simple. Find an alternator that has a built in voltage regulator and a 1/2″ drive pulley. Mount a pulley either to the wheel hub, or if you want a speed multiplier and the base for the forecart, just use a truck axle and bolt the pulley to the pinion flange. Look for Dana built truck axles, since they are built outside of any one manufacturer, they generally have flanges, instead of yokes. One out of a dually rear end will be narrower and usually have deeper gearing.

Not to knock your idea, but why electricity? Given that so many pieces of equipment are already outfitted with hydraulics, why switch to something as fidgity and expensive as electric?

Hitching an electric forecart to one of these implement would require some interesting connections. All would have to be free of dirt and moisture. It would also need a way to control the ground circuit so as not to arc out the system everytime you plugged something in. Not really sure how you would handle the rain. I guess if all you are doing is running a 12 volt system you won’t really get in any serious trouble.

Also, the strain it might put on the batteries could shorten their service life. Changing out those batteries every couple of years wouldn’t be much fun.

I would say that hydraulic accumulater systems are a bit better suited to the farming environment than electricity, but please, don’t let my opinion stop you from building anything, and if you have questions along the way, don’t be afraid to ask.

Jonny B.

[OldKat]

@416Jonny 3013 wrote:

Of course you could do it. You can do just about damned near anything with electricity if you feel like it, or feel like spending the money.

The system would end up working like a hydraulic three point hitch cart (since electricity and water end up acting in very similiar manners) by accumulating energy, either by use of pressure (hydraulic) or voltage (electricity).

There is a system out there that uses a forecart and a special three point trailer behind it that uses electricity, only it gets charged by being plugged in.

Setting up a charging system is beyond simple. Find an alternator that has a built in voltage regulator and a 1/2″ drive pulley. Mount a pulley either to the wheel hub, or if you want a speed multiplier and the base for the forecart, just use a truck axle and bolt the pulley to the pinion flange. Look for Dana built truck axles, since they are built outside of any one manufacturer, they generally have flanges, instead of yokes. One out of a dually rear end will be narrower and usually have deeper gearing.

Not to knock your idea, but why electricity? Given that so many pieces of equipment are already outfitted with hydraulics, why switch to something as fidgity and expensive as electric?

Hitching an electric forecart to one of these implement would require some interesting connections. All would have to be free of dirt and moisture. It would also need a way to control the ground circuit so as not to arc out the system everytime you plugged something in. Not really sure how you would handle the rain. I guess if all you are doing is running a 12 volt system you won’t really get in any serious trouble.

Also, the strain it might put on the batteries could shorten their service life. Changing out those batteries every couple of years wouldn’t be much fun.

I would say that hydraulic accumulater systems are a bit better suited to the farming environment than electricity, but please, don’t let my opinion stop you from building anything, and if you have questions along the way, don’t be afraid to ask.

Jonny B.

Thanks for the feedback 416Jonny. After I reread my post I realized that I kinda mis-spoke about what I was trying to do. That’s what I get for posting in the middle of the night, because I couldn’t sleep! What I was really getting at was a way to power existing hydraulic cylinders without having to use a gasoline engine to power a pump, or a ground drive accumulator …. because of the weight issues. Having said that it, by the time you add the storage batteries and all of the gearing involved it might end up being heavier than existing options anyway.

Much of the farmland around where I currently live is going out of production because the land is being broken up into smaller tracts. That is putting allot of smaller to moderate sized equipment on the market, much of which could be adapted to be being pulled behind a forecart. Many of the current options I have seen are really heavy, so I was looking for a way to reduce that weight. However, that may not be possible. Anyway, thanks again for your thoughts.

[Carl Russell]

Check out the Yard Hitch 3-pth Cart at http://www.yardhitch.com There are also photos on the gallery, under equipment.

Gene Gunderson has designed a 4-wheeled cart with electric powered hydraulics that run a 3-pth that can take any category one implement. It weighs about 500 lbs, but the extra weight comes in handy for some of the uses it can be put too. It can be plugged in to be charged, and batteries can be switched out easily, so that you can move round bales all day long. It is well-built, and well-designed. A good piece for the tractor farmer in transition to horses.

Carl

[OldKat]

@Carl Russell 3015 wrote:

Check out the Yard Hitch 3-pth Cart at http://www.yardhitch.com There are also photos on the gallery, under equipment.

Gene Gunderson has designed a 4-wheeled cart with electric powered hydraulics that run a 3-pth that can take any category one implement. It weighs about 500 lbs, but the extra weight comes in handy for some of the uses it can be put too. It can be plugged in to be charged, and batteries can be switched out easily, so that you can move round bales all day long. It is well-built, and well-designed. A good piece for the tractor farmer in transition to horses.

Carl

Yes. “Essentially” what I had in mind. Doesn’t include charging on the go, but weight wise that may not be an option anyway. Guess this is another take on an answer to my question.

Thanks.

[416Jonny]

I was thinking more along the lines of how much the equipment costs to start with and the up keep that it takes to maintain multiple batteries.

But all is not lost. Part of the weight involed helps traction to run such implements. Either way it takes energy to store up energy to use in another form. Wether it’s hydraulic or electric, it’s going to take power to use.

In a hydraulic system running a positive displacement pump and accumulator, there with be some sort of pressure relief valve that will direct fluid back to the reservior when the system is charged. It’s application is much smoother than that of using an electrical system with a voltage regulator because of it’s ability to meter fluid pressure.

The general electrical charging system is either on or off. When the power bank lowers to the specific point (automotive regulators turn on around 12.45 volts, the industry minimum charge a 12 volt battery should hold on it’s own) the regulator energizes the stator of the alternator creating the magnetic field needed to produce electricity. This causes the alternator to not want to turn at all. To test this, turn an alternator over by by without the field being energized, it’s easy. Energize the alternator then try to turn it over, it’s almost impossible to do by hand.

Both systems create a degree of drag relative to the load. Under serious load conditions that extra weight is a bonus in terms of traction. Another thought is wheel and tire selection. Steel wheels with big evil looking lugs might give you all the traction you’d ever need at the expense of a bumpy ride that shakes your kidneys like a paint shaker if you take off down the road. And your neighbors probably would stop speaking to you (or start for that matter) for tearing up the road.

It wouldn’t be out of the question to retro fit a forecart to accept hydraulics. The three point hitch might be iffy to fabricate if you’ve never done it before.

I once had a thought that you could run various types of implements on hydraulic power using multiple circuits. For example, you could hitch a haybine to the back of the forecart, run a hydraulic motor to turn the PTO shaft and have a seperate circuit to control the cylinder. Running a system like that should carry a larger reservior and a heat exchanger of some sorts.

It’s entirely possible to build one of these systems for much less than it cost to buy something new. I read the cost for some of the hydraulic forecarts and the Yard Hitch and it makes me cringe. I’m poor and don’t really like the idea of paying somebody else a large amount of money if I can build it myself.

Just some more thoughts.

Jonny B.

[OldKat]

@416Jonny 3019 wrote:

I was thinking more along the lines of how much the equipment costs to start with and the up keep that it takes to maintain multiple batteries.

But all is not lost. Part of the weight involed helps traction to run such implements. Either way it takes energy to store up energy to use in another form. Wether it’s hydraulic or electric, it’s going to take power to use.

In a hydraulic system running a positive displacement pump and accumulator, there with be some sort of pressure relief valve that will direct fluid back to the reservior when the system is charged. It’s application is much smoother than that of using an electrical system with a voltage regulator because of it’s ability to meter fluid pressure.

The general electrical charging system is either on or off. When the power bank lowers to the specific point (automotive regulators turn on around 12.45 volts, the industry minimum charge a 12 volt battery should hold on it’s own) the regulator energizes the stator of the alternator creating the magnetic field needed to produce electricity. This causes the alternator to not want to turn at all. To test this, turn an alternator over by by without the field being energized, it’s easy. Energize the alternator then try to turn it over, it’s almost impossible to do by hand.

Both systems create a degree of drag relative to the load. Under serious load conditions that extra weight is a bonus in terms of traction. Another thought is wheel and tire selection. Steel wheels with big evil looking lugs might give you all the traction you’d ever need at the expense of a bumpy ride that shakes your kidneys like a paint shaker if you take off down the road. And your neighbors probably would stop speaking to you (or start for that matter) for tearing up the road.

It wouldn’t be out of the question to retro fit a forecart to accept hydraulics. The three point hitch might be iffy to fabricate if you’ve never done it before.

I once had a thought that you could run various types of implements on hydraulic power using multiple circuits. For example, you could hitch a haybine to the back of the forecart, run a hydraulic motor to turn the PTO shaft and have a seperate circuit to control the cylinder. Running a system like that should carry a larger reservior and a heat exchanger of some sorts.

It’s entirely possible to build one of these systems for much less than it cost to buy something new. I read the cost for some of the hydraulic forecarts and the Yard Hitch and it makes me cringe. I’m poor and don’t really like the idea of paying somebody else a large amount of money if I can build it myself.

Just some more thoughts.

Jonny B.

Interesting. I guess I’m blessed enough to be able to say that I am not (currently) poor, (was considerably more well off a year ago than I am now; if you know what I mean. DJI 14,000+ vs. 9,387 and shaking!) but I know what you mean about building things yourself if you can. I’ve got way too much German in me to want to start spending hard earned dollars if I don’t have to!

I looked at the stuff from Yard Hitch, very slick looking products. I am sure they are well designed and well built, too. Still you are looking at over 4K if you go with a forecart with brakes & the power cart. That is way more $$$$ than I can justify to Mrs. OldKat, as this is still a HOBBY at this point.

The weight thing is a puzzle to me. I hear what you and Carl are saying about enough weight for traction, but how would you measure THE OPTIMUM weight for such a forecart? Too little weight and the mechanical or elctro-mechanical functionality is lost. Too much weight and it may take more ponies than I want to keep around just to lug it.

By the way, the Yard Hitch idea of using a stand alone cart for the power unit really makes sense when you think about it. Just drop it when you are doing something that doesn’t require hydraulics. Appears that they use an auto steer front end on the forecart, which is something I had also thought about. Lots of possibilities.

[Carl Russell]

The Yard Hitch IS wicked costly, BUT there is a lot of steel in it, AND Gene has put a lot of thought and engineering into it. He is very approachable, and talking with him may be a good way to advance your thought. I also think the price is way out of my ball park, but if I ran a dairy farm with tractors and was seriously considering how I could use horses more, the cost of this piece would be a less than going out to buy a whole line of horse drawn implements to replace my 3-pth tools.

As far as electrical generation during work, besides the extra drag on the animals, I am not sure you would generate that much during the same time frame that a battery charger can, and the key to an electrical system is having full batteries. Possibly a solar charging unit by the barn, or some central location would be a better alternative to grid-tie. Or build a canopy with solar panels right on the unit, just don’t go into the woods!!!

I’m not sure that the weigh of the Yard Hitch is that bad especially in light of the weight of the implements, and payloads, that can be attached. And for example the way Gene engineered the rig, the 3-pth has down pressure, which in combination with 500 lbs can be an advantage to the horse operation, where tractors come with pretty good ballast already.

I know that in many ways YH goes beyond the basic needs, or finances, but in some cases over-engineered and over-built can be a good thing. I am not trying to sell you one, but we had Gene at NEAPFD in 08, and many people were very impressed with his machine. I think it’s worth looking at closely for more answers.

Carl

[416Jonny]

It’s a very nice machine!

I think there is a lot of equipment out there that could be utilized without needing to run an engine in front of it.

I talked to the hydraulics instructor today about a design and he believed there wasn’t any good reason to not be able to run multiple accumulator circuits to run hydraulic cylinders and motors at the same time. Could open up some new ground for equipment. Hmmmm…..

I was reading through SFJ the other day and I’ve been noticing a disturbing trend in equipment retrofiting. For example, people were fitting taller steel wheels on their horsedrawn mowers under the belief that they were gearing them up, i.e., running the knife bar faster. That is wrong. The knife bar is now moving slower. The larger the diameter the wheel, the slower the shaft is going to turn in terms of RPM. If you were driving the shaft to move the wheel, then yes, you would go faster. Just figured I’d put that out there before anyone bought new wheels under the impression of gaining higher driven RPM’s.

[Author]

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