Ground driving problems

[Doug]

I’m looking for advice on an eighteen year old Belgian gelding that I bought last week. I was told that he spent most of his previous working life as a logging horse, but I can’t confirm that. I got him from a lady who had bought him hoping to ride him, but that didn’t work out for her. She said he was too “forward”, but otherwise nice. Anyway, he seems to be a very nice horse: he is easy to lead, picks up all of his feet, and stands still while I harness him. I ground drove him a couple of times around the pasture and things were going great until I tried to hitch him up to a small log. He became very nervous, and from that point on I couldn’t even get him back to that side of the field. I thought perhaps it was the steel single-tree that he wasn’t used to, so I unhitched him for the day and left the single-tree out where he could check it out from a safe place. The next day I put a halter on him and led him out to where he had shied away from the log… no problem. I brought the single-tree up to him and let him smell it and I shook it all around him… no problem. I harnessed him back up and tried to just ground drive him out into the field, but he would spin around faster than I could keep up with the lines, and head back for the barn. Now I can’t seem to drive him at all. I am new to all of this, and I don’t want to ruin what seems to be a nice horse. Any advice would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
Doug Bliss

[CIW]

The horse could have worked his entire life in the woods and only worked in a team. He may not know how to work by himself.
Tie him up till you get someone there to help you.
If he has in fact been worked you may be giving him some kind of signal while you are hitching that is causing him to react the way he is.
Get some onsite help.

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Doug, Sounds like a nice horse. I hope you get him going. I know I always say it but remember we have not ever met the horse. We could all be wrong. I think there are three general possibilities.

The first is that there is really nothing “wrong” with the horse. His behavior is not exactly what you want but that could be because he did not get the signals he needed or was used to working with. He may have not worked much recently. He may not have worked single in a long time. All these things come back to the teamster recognizing and dealing with. Not the horse.

Second is weakness in his training or behavior that have gone uncorrected for a long time which are just being expressed now that he is being asked to return to work.

Finally, a combination of both, or a little of one and more of the other.

The trick to resolving this is to observe him more closely. What will he do calmly? What will he do if you challenge him a little but not so much that he doesn’t stay in control? What kind of line pressure is he using when you drive him?

When a horse “spins around faster than you can keep up with the lines” That should be prevented by the teamster before it happens. easy to say, not all ways easy to do while you are still learning. First. bracket the horse. I am not sure if that is a technical term but to me it means keeping one line on either side of their but. You will want to progress to driving from either side of the horse as soon as you can, but to bracket them will help a great deal if they are thinking of turning around. When a bracketed horse tries to spin around they are already tightening the line that prevents them from coming on around. With the lines over their back the teamster must see what is coming and react to prevent it before it really get started. Focus your eyes on their head like a laser. Let their head tell you what they are thinking and what they are about to do. Steer their head with the lines to make them continue to do what you want and go were you want to go.

Finally, In my thread on training Connie I talked about the need for a chance for a green teamster and a new horse to establish the working relationship. Skip some of the trapping of harness and driving at first and just establish a relationship that makes it clear who leads and who follows. Good luck with the new horse Doug, and keep us posted on what is up. Donn

[becorson]

do you have someone who can lead the horse (with a leadrope on his halter) while you drive him? if he leads well, that might make the situation less stressful for him and get him over the “hump”

[Ira]

@Doug 7035 wrote:

I’m looking for advice on an eighteen year old Belgian gelding that I bought last week. I was told that he spent most of his previous working life as a logging horse, but I can’t confirm that. I got him from a lady who had bought him hoping to ride him, but that didn’t work out for her. She said he was too “forward”, but otherwise nice. Anyway, he seems to be a very nice horse: he is easy to lead, picks up all of his feet, and stands still while I harness him. I ground drove him a couple of times around the pasture and things were going great until I tried to hitch him up to a small log. He became very nervous, and from that point on I couldn’t even get him back to that side of the field. I thought perhaps it was the steel single-tree that he wasn’t used to, so I unhitched him for the day and left the single-tree out where he could check it out from a safe place. The next day I put a halter on him and led him out to where he had shied away from the log… no problem. I brought the single-tree up to him and let him smell it and I shook it all around him… no problem. I harnessed him back up and tried to just ground drive him out into the field, but he would spin around faster than I could keep up with the lines, and head back for the barn. Now I can’t seem to drive him at all. I am new to all of this, and I don’t want to ruin what seems to be a nice horse. Any advice would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
Doug Bliss

Doug,
What you are describing (fear of hitching) is a pulling horse that has been “tuned up” one to many times. Yes he can be reeducated, but you have to decide whether you want to spend your time on a horse that someone else has spoiled (and probably will never be 100% safe) or cut your losses and try to find one that will hitch and drive for you.

[jen judkins]

@Ira 7073 wrote:

Doug,
What you are describing (fear of hitching) is a pulling horse that has been “tuned up” one to many times. QUOTE]

Ira, What does this mean, exactly….’tuned up’?

[near horse]

The horse could have worked his entire life in the woods and only worked in a team. He may not know how to work by himself

How common a problem is this? My young team also doesn’t fair so well when driven single. They don’t run off but act as if they don’t know their cues as well (my impression). In fact, when ground driving they do (or try to) whirl around as Doug described. They don’t run off but it’s evident they aren’t as comfortable by themselves. It willbe easier to work on this when I can get off the county road and into the field. “Dancing” in the roadway, no matter how much minor travel it gets, is still too dangerous.

[Ira]

@jenjudkins 7075 wrote:

@Ira 7073 wrote:

Doug,
What you are describing (fear of hitching) is a pulling horse that has been “tuned up” one to many times. QUOTE]

Ira, What does this mean, exactly….’tuned up’?

Jen,
Horse pullers want their teams to hit the load as hard as they can as soon as the horses hear the evener hit the hook on the sled. Most horses will learn this thru repetition and conditioning.There are some individuals that try to enhance this process by using a cattle prod on the horses when the evener is dropped. “Tuning them up”. Doing this repeatedly causes horses to become terrified of the whole hitching process. You can do anything with them but hitch them. Just as the OP described.

[ADKLogger]

I had a horse like this that I eventually had to get rid of just because he was to dangerous. I could lead him or ground drive him all over the place but when I would try and hitch him to a log he would begin to dance and want to bolt out of the starting gate like a race horse. As you can imagine in the woods this is especially dangerous as we perfected the hitch and dive method of horse skidding.

I truly believe that what ever happened to him in his previous life made him bipolar. So much for my equine psychology. He is now the member of a horse pulling team so this might suite him much better.

-Frank

[Carl Russell]

Hi Doug, I am going to throw out a few thoughts below, in bold letters.

Doug;7035 wrote:

…I was told that he spent most of his previous working life as a logging horse, but I can’t confirm that. …Don’t put too much time into trying to figure out the baggage he comes with, this can lead to an overall presentation of uncertainty/fear that he will pick up on.

She said he was too “forward”, but otherwise nice. This is a little “telling”. SHE may have let him be too forward.

….Anyway, he seems to be a very nice horse: he is easy to lead, picks up all of his feet, and stands still while I harness him. As Donn suggested, use these experiences to your advantage and concentrate on the parts that work for you.

I ground drove him a couple of times around the pasture and things were going great until I tried to hitch him up to a small log. He became very nervous, and from that point on I couldn’t even get him back to that side of the field. I thought perhaps it was the steel single-tree that he wasn’t used to, so I unhitched him for the day and left the single-tree out where he could check it out from a safe place.

This may be as simple as that he didn’t get the cues, or even simpler that because you have limited experience, you are unclear what you did to upset him. I tend to disregard the tendency to attribute behavior to a piece of equipment, or to a situation, and focus more on the point at which the horse, possibly displaying anxiety, looks to you for guidance (he evaluates how you are responding), and if you buy into his expression of anxiety, it will only fuel his. Then when you return to the site you are looking to him to show you how he will react instead of “leading” him into a situation that you know has no threat.

I do not want to diminish the seriousness of Ira’s comments though, if he is expressing habits learned from mishandling, it can be very dangerous, and will take a lot of patience and skill to keep your focus on the correct expected responses.

The next day I put a halter on him and led him out to where he had shied away from the log… no problem. I brought the single-tree up to him and let him smell it and I shook it all around him… no problem.

This time you were much more comfortable with him, lead rope etc.

I harnessed him back up and tried to just ground drive him out into the field, but he would spin around faster than I could keep up with the lines, and head back for the barn. Now I can’t seem to drive him at all.

His behavior requires a solid expression of skill on your part. Now he is testing you at every chance to see if you are in control.

Like Donn said try keeping lines on each side. I add another element, square your shoulders to the bit, and visualize a rectangle in front of you. Drive the rectangle. If you want the horse to go left, you step to the right. This is a graphic representation of the consistency he will look for from you. Once you get him driving, practice the steps of hitching to logs, stop , turn around, stop, back, stop and stand, wait, start again. Eventually see how he responds with the singletree behind him. When you want to hitch him again, wait until you know he is following your cues and will stand and wait for you. You can do this by false hitching, make him think you’ve hitched, but just go about driving him on to another practice.

Get someone with more experience to give you assistance and guidance.

Not being there, I may be completely off-base. I hope you can find some use in my comments. Carl

[OldKat]

@near horse 7090 wrote:

How common a problem is this? My young team also doesn’t fair so well when driven single. They don’t run off but act as if they don’t know their cues as well (my impression). In fact, when ground driving they do (or try to) whirl around as Doug described. They don’t run off but it’s evident they aren’t as comfortable by themselves. It willbe easier to work on this when I can get off the county road and into the field. “Dancing” in the roadway, no matter how much minor travel it gets, is still too dangerous.

I was just thinking yesterday about posting nearly this exact same post. BACKGROUND: I had borrowed some equipment to have my mares pull, but the organization that owned it decided to relocate and reorganize & I had to return everything to them. Since it was still up in the air as to if I was going to retire, change employment, relocate, etc, etc I didn’t think it prudent to spend a bunch of $$$$ on equipment at this time. So I elected to ground drive my girls as much as possible, maybe build a stone boat etc to pull etc. I have had NO problems when I drive them this way in the arena, in the pasture, out on some leased property etc.

However, since I have started driving them out on the road (which I started doing with them as singles) I noticed that they are very “anxious”. Several times they try to spin and head back to the barn. I don’t let them get away with this crap; they end up going where I want them to go. It is just that I had been thinking that the problem was being out on the road. Maybe it is more a matter of being away from their teammate or they are just plain barn sour.

Anyway, I had been just using a curcingle and lines on them and driving either directly behind them or slightly off to either side. When they decide to spin around the lines “pivot” at the curcingle and everything comes to a complete stop until I can get them pointed in the right direction. Since I have the rest of the single buggy harness, as well as team harness, I thought I would put a set of rings on the hipdrops and string the lines through them as well as on the curcingle or, if using the team harness, on the hames. That way I can keep them a little better lined out. Do any of you more experienced types think this would be of any value?

Keep in mind they are not continuously spinning away from me, but for example yesterday while I was ground driving each of them (probably 35 minutes or so, covering probably 1.5 miles or more each) both of them did this at a small bridge probably .25 miles from the barn and once or twice more as we encountered things such as people with leaf blowers, a boogey monster manhole cover etc. Nothing “serious” happened, I just don’t want them thinking that this is acceptable behavior. Thoughts? Bottom line, is this an issue that I can address with equipment or should I look to pair them up with a more seasoned horse?

[OldKat]

@near horse 7090 wrote:

How common a problem is this? My young team also doesn’t fair so well when driven single. They don’t run off but act as if they don’t know their cues as well (my impression). In fact, when ground driving they do (or try to) whirl around as Doug described. They don’t run off but it’s evident they aren’t as comfortable by themselves. It willbe easier to work on this when I can get off the county road and into the field. “Dancing” in the roadway, no matter how much minor travel it gets, is still too dangerous.

I tried posting this before, but it just vanuished. So here goes again…

I was just thinking yesterday about posting nearly this exact same post. BACKGROUND: I had borrowed some equipment to have my mares pull, but the organization that owned it decided to relocate and reorganize & I had to return everything to them. Since it was still up in the air as to if I was going to retire, change employment, relocate, etc, etc I didn’t think it prudent to spend a bunch of $$$$ on equipment at this time. So I elected to ground drive my girls as much as possible, maybe build a stone boat etc to pull etc. I have had NO problems when I drive them this way in the arena, in the pasture, out on some leased property.

However, since I have started driving them out on the road (which I started doing with them as singles) I noticed that they are very “anxious”. Several times they try to spin and head back to the barn. I don’t let them get away with this crap; they end up going where I want them to go. It is just that I had been thinking that the problem was being out on the road. Maybe it is more a matter of being away from their teammate or they are just plain barns our.

Anyway, I had been just using a curcingle and lines on them and driving either directly behind them or slightly off to either side. When they decide to spin around the lines “pivot” at the curcingle and everything comes to a complete stop until I can get them pointed in the right direction. Since I have the rest of the single buggy harness, as well as team harness, I thought I would put a set of rings on the hip drop and string the lines through them as well as on the curcingle or, if using the team harness, on the hames. That way I can keep them a little better lined out. Do any of you more experienced types think this would be of any value?

Keep in mind they are not continuously spinning away from me, but for example yesterday while I was ground driving each of them (probably 35 minutes or so, covering probably 1.5 miles or more each) both of them did this at a small bridge probably .25 miles from the barn and once or twice more as we encountered things such as people with leaf blowers, a boogey monster manhole cover etc. Nothing “serious” happened, I just don’t want them thinking that this is acceptable behavior. Thoughts? Bottom line, is this an issue that I can address with equipment or should I look to pair them up with a more seasoned horse?

[Jean]

I have only ground driven my mare, and she was a horrible spinner in the beginning. I would get all tangled up. Someone suggested that I stop driving her with the lines over her butt, but on her side. I find that easier to do that if I take the time to put her whole harness on and use the rings in the hames, rather then just using a sircingle that would slip around when she spun. She still tries to spin, but does not get very far because I can offset it with the lines on her side. She is barn sour and will only walk a straight line if we are headed back to the barn, or to the gate. It will take a lot of time and work to get her to move nicely, but at least I have I that one “trick” to keep her from spinning around to face me.

[OldKat]

@Jean 7344 wrote:

I have only ground driven my mare, and she was a horrible spinner in the beginning. I would get all tangled up. Someone suggested that I stop driving her with the lines over her butt, but on her side. I find that easier to do that if I take the time to put her whole harness on and use the rings in the hames, rather then just using a sircingle that would slip around when she spun. She still tries to spin, but does not get very far because I can offset it with the lines on her side. She is barn sour and will only walk a straight line if we are headed back to the barn, or to the gate. It will take a lot of time and work to get her to move nicely, but at least I have I that one “trick” to keep her from spinning around to face me.

I was hoping someone could provide some perspective and experience with this issue. I think I’ll use the team harness and add some rings on the hips to keep the lines down off her rump. Thanks again for the feedback.

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Old Kat, just some thoughts and observations. “the leaf blower” the “man whole cover”, and a “bridge’ all constitute things I would expect a green horse to react to. I would be surprised if they didn’t. Before we think about how to “drive’ them by it, I would think about what they want from a leader when they encounter something new and possibly dangerous (in their minds).

Can you sense when they start to tense up, before they think of turning away from it? If you catch them before they are too close you might try letting them give it good looking over. When you sense that they are ready let them go forward. Don’t rush past something like a leaf blower; at what ever distance they can handle let them get used to it. If a bridge or leaf blower is really scary you may need to work up to it gradually. You could use a lead rope for a time or two if you need to.

Finally, when they question whether something is safe or not, your calm, relaxed demeanor will confirm their thinking that this might be OK. Any frustration or extra energy from you will convince them that their suspicions were right, it is a hazard to be avoided.

I wouldn’t add extra rings to the harness as they might interfere when you do want to cross over the horses back. Try to anticipate these little demonstrations and head them off by making them relax before going forward. If you have done several of these long drives they are probably ready to pull something. Let me know if I am way off base. Donn

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