Ground driving problems

[Anonymous]

i was always told not to make excuses for the horse. i guess its best towork with what you got. i recently brought home a horse that was worked and trained but didn’t quite understand what i wanted from her when i started ground driving her single. she would turn on me but i could keep her in front of me. what i did was simple. i had a friend lead her as i drove her. so she stepped foward when thats what i wanted etc. after a while of doing this i made sure my friend had no tension on the lead, a few more times around and he dropped off. later that morning i had her in front of a disc harrow and working up a sweat. she was well trained already but understood pennsylvania dutch commands, wop instead of haw, yip instead of come up, but its all in the gesture and she took right to me. i hope your having luck.

[OldKat]

@Donn Hewes 7366 wrote:

Hi Old Kat, just some thoughts and observations. “the leaf blower” the “man whole cover”, and a “bridge’ all constitute things I would expect a green horse to react to. I would be surprised if they didn’t. Before we think about how to “drive’ them by it, I would think about what they want from a leader when they encounter something new and possibly dangerous (in their minds).

Can you sense when they start to tense up, before they think of turning away from it? If you catch them before they are too close you might try letting them give it good looking over. When you sense that they are ready let them go forward. Don’t rush past something like a leaf blower; at what ever distance they can handle let them get used to it. If a bridge or leaf blower is really scary you may need to work up to it gradually. You could use a lead rope for a time or two if you need to.

Finally, when they question whether something is safe or not, your calm, relaxed demeanor will confirm their thinking that this might be OK. Any frustration or extra energy from you will convince them that their suspicions were right, it is a hazard to be avoided.

I wouldn’t add extra rings to the harness as they might interfere when you do want to cross over the horses back. Try to anticipate these little demonstrations and head them off by making them relax before going forward. If you have done several of these long drives they are probably ready to pull something. Let me know if I am way off base. Donn

No, you are pretty much on target. I have worked really hard over the years on “low and slow” with my animals, so I don’t think I am telegraphing concern to them. They never “pitched a fit” or tried to “run away” from these obstacles, they just wanted to spin & go the other way. What I did was turn them back into whatever boogey man was after them, give them a firm “whoa” and then rest my hand on their rump. Then, when they calmed down a little, I asked them to walk by it and in every case they did. This got us past each obstacle without a major scene.

The mares had been ground driven away from the barn area before, but always away from town meaning into a more open area. That was their first exposure to heavier traffic, and more human activity. I drove toward town just to find out how they would react. So I quess in retrospect I shouldn’t be too surprised. In fact all in all, I’d have to say they handled most of it fairly well. It was just these few incidents that had me concerned. Perhaps I was expecting more from them than I should have.

The larger mare, Maggie, is more prone to getting excited. Overall she is actually calmer and more laid back, but when she does get rattled she really gets her head up in the air, works her ears and wants to prance. Not surprisingly, when she has been hitched to a load (disc, harrow, etc) she is the more honest puller. On Sunday I did have a problem with her trying to get out in front of the bit, especially on the way back to the barn. So I want to explore that issue some more with you. (As relates to an earlier post by someone else)

Rachel is actually a bit more inclined to see boogey monsters everywhere, but as soon as she can identify something as non-threatening she calms right down. She does not require much pressure at all on the bit, but does tend to “wander” when you are driving her if you give her zero tension on the lines. I tried the alternating pulse, release, pulse, release tension with both of them. It worked a little better with Rachel; Maggie was so intent on getting back to the barn that it made little difference. I’m thinking of hauling them 5 or 6 miles away from the barn and driving them down some very quite dirt roads just to judge where there are in a unfamiliar environment. Any value to that approach?

[OldKat]

@D.Todd Newlin 7368 wrote:

i was always told not to make excuses for the horse. i guess its best towork with what you got. i recently brought home a horse that was worked and trained but didn’t quite understand what i wanted from her when i started ground driving her single. she would turn on me but i could keep her in front of me. what i did was simple. i had a friend lead her as i drove her. so she stepped foward when thats what i wanted etc. after a while of doing this i made sure my friend had no tension on the lead, a few more times around and he dropped off. later that morning i had her in front of a disc harrow and working up a sweat. she was well trained already but understood pennsylvania dutch commands, wop instead of haw, yip instead of come up, but its all in the gesture and she took right to me. i hope your having luck.

Thanks for answering my post. Actually, when I started ground drving them in the round pen I did use a helper on a lead rope. However, with both mares within about 10 minutes it appeared that they were more confused by the helper than they were without them so I did away with that real fast. However, there may still be some value in having someone along with a lead rope when out on the road.

Probably they did not benefit from the helper in the round pen, because where else where they going to go? Since they could try to avoid going past obstacles out on the road they did. Both you and Donn suggested using a lead rope, if need be. Maybe I need to listen to the voices of experience.

My wife likes to go walking anyway, so I think I will recruit her to be my helper this weekend. The mares are use to her anyway, because she feeds for me sometimes when business takes me out of town. This could actually be fun. I’m glad you guys suggested this.

Thanks again.

[LStone]

OldKat,

I have experienced a lot of what you are seeing with your team. My filly once harnessed wouldn’t move forward to save her own life. She is the one I referred to once in this group as the “herky jerky” filly. I ended up getting her to go with help from someone on a lead rope, but even with that at it took a while. I thought she was herd bound to my gelding because it was only a month or so after getting her to my place that I started her up, and figured the move was hard on her with losing friends and gaining new ones etc. But actually I have no idea of what was wrong or why she came out of it eventually. She still isn’t very good at being tied with blinders on and is leary of anything new to her. This included all of what you pointed out and some old standbys such as flapping flags, Snowmobiles, snowblowers, and Oh by the way air blowoffs on commercial trucks. I never even thought of that one until it happened with both my bigguns hooked to a forecart. Neither one of them had any tolerance for that and it happened at the most perfect time possible.We learned together that time and most of my life was reviewed, but I can’t wait for it to happen again. This winter I had two of my three horses side by side with a snowblower for a time. I don’t know that it helped permanently but the later passes were handled quite a bit differently by them than the earlier ones.

There have been many good posts on this subject and the only other things I would add if not already covered are to be alert for potential fear triggers and I increase my verbal communication with them to try to get them to split their attention between me and the fear. I have found that it might help in deadening the negative reaction, but what do I know? Try to find what they are skittish of and spend time with them to desensitize them of the fear. There are grunches of things for these guys to be afraid of and every horse has a different threshold of what bothers them. I imagine it will take a long life with the same horse to figure out and cure it of all fear, even if you are fortunate enough to find them all. So Just keep digging at it. In my limited experience I have kind of adopted a (time+miles=success) philosophy. It isn’t how you get to “success” but it is the fact you get there at all.

Oh yeah, then there is the confidence thing. That I am sure you have read about many time around here.

Larry

[Donn Hewes]

About useing the lead rope. Don’t start leading them for things you already know they can do on their own. Just leave the halter on under the bridle and attach the lead rope, hang the end up on a hame, so it will stay there. Now your wife can walk with you! Now the lead rope is available as an extra tool should it be needed to help the horse investigate a new thing or situation. try to hang it back up as soon as it is not needed again.

Actually, investigating all these interesting situations without any load is part of what makes it difficult. Provided the animal is well accustomed to the thing they are hooked to; when you run into something new the cart or sled has a little anchoring effect that encourages the animal to stay and figure something out. Investigating without that support is fine you just notice their movements may be a little quicker.

Tell me more about “getting ahead of the bit” if you like. Sounds like you are having fun to me. Donn

PS. Larry, I just read your post after I wrote mine. Great advice about staying alert. If you can be calm and relaxed and alert all at the same time that is a real skill. I think over time it becomes a habit and we are alert without trying. This makes a huge difference. Seeing the things that might be a challange for your team before they do gives you a whole different set of options for dealing with it and setting them up to handle it in a positive way. I keep my eyes on the their heads, this is a great indicator of what is going on.

[OldKat]

@LStone 7384 wrote:

OldKat,

I have experienced a lot of what you are seeing with your team. My filly once harnessed wouldn’t move forward to save her own life. She is the one I referred to once in this group as the “herky jerky” filly. I ended up getting her to go with help from someone on a lead rope, but even with that at it took a while. I thought she was herd bound to my gelding because it was only a month or so after getting her to my place that I started her up, and figured the move was hard on her with losing friends and gaining new ones etc. But actually I have no idea of what was wrong or why she came out of it eventually. She still isn’t very good at being tied with blinders on and is leary of anything new to her. This included all of what you pointed out and some old standbys such as flapping flags, Snowmobiles, snowblowers, and Oh by the way air blowoffs on commercial trucks. I never even thought of that one until it happened with both my bigguns hooked to a forecart. Neither one of them had any tolerance for that and it happened at the most perfect time possible.We learned together that time and most of my life was reviewed, but I can’t wait for it to happen again. This winter I had two of my three horses side by side with a snowblower for a time. I don’t know that it helped permanently but the later passes were handled quite a bit differently by them than the earlier ones.

There have been many good posts on this subject and the only other things I would add if not already covered are to be alert for potential fear triggers and I increase my verbal communication with them to try to get them to split their attention between me and the fear. I have found that it might help in deadening the negative reaction, but what do I know? Try to find what they are skittish of and spend time with them to desensitize them of the fear. There are grunches of things for these guys to be afraid of and every horse has a different threshold of what bothers them. I imagine it will take a long life with the same horse to figure out and cure it of all fear, even if you are fortunate enough to find them all. So Just keep digging at it. In my limited experience I have kind of adopted a (time+miles=success) philosophy. It isn’t how you get to “success” but it is the fact you get there at all.

Oh yeah, then there is the confidence thing. That I am sure you have read about many time around here.

Larry

Larry,

I got a good laugh out of your line; “and most of my life was reviewed, but I can’t wait for it to happen again” and I am not sure if you mean confidence on the part of the team or on the part of the teamster, or maybe both. Still, I can relate.

One time I was driving an Amish buggy that an Amish guy I know had hitched to a relatively green mare. We were heading down an open highway with no traffic in sight when suddenly the mare lurched to the right and jumped into the ditch. Mare, buggy and all just seemed to float there for a second. Fortunately the ditch was fairly flat and no harm was done.

After I pulled her back up onto the highway I saw the cause of the problem. An Amish youngster was riding a saddle horse down the opposite shoulder and shot past us, startling the mare. He saw what was happening and reined up to see if we were okay. Later, I learned that he had been late to school so had been pushing his mount pretty hard. Anyway, his uncle John (the guy I knew) made him come over that afternoon and apologize for the incident. I told him an apology was not required, because I knew the kid didn’t mean any harm and besides it helped me greatly with my confidence that I could regain control when something like that happens. AND … stuff happens.

[OldKat]

@Donn Hewes 7385 wrote:

About useing the lead rope. Don’t start leading them for things you already know they can do on their own. Just leave the halter on under the bridle and attach the lead rope, hang the end up on a hame, so it will stay there. Now your wife can walk with you! Now the lead rope is available as an extra tool should it be needed to help the horse investigate a new thing or situation. try to hang it back up as soon as it is not needed again.

Actually, investigating all these interesting situations without any load is part of what makes it difficult. Provided the animal is well accustomed to the thing they are hooked to; when you run into something new the cart or sled has a little anchoring effect that encourages the animal to stay and figure something out. Investigating without that support is fine you just notice their movements may be a little quicker.

Tell me more about “getting ahead of the bit” if you like. Sounds like you are having fun to me. Donn

PS. Larry, I just read your post after I wrote mine. Great advice about staying alert. If you can be calm and relaxed and alert all at the same time that is a real skill. I think over time it becomes a habit and we are alert without trying. This makes a huge difference. Seeing the things that might be a challange for your team before they do gives you a whole different set of options for dealing with it and setting them up to handle it in a positive way. I keep my eyes on the their heads, this is a great indicator of what is going on.

… on the lead rope. I was kind of figuring that is the way you meant to use it and even if not, that is pretty much the way I was going to have to approach it because, like I said before, my girls didn’t take real well to being led and driven at the same time anyway.

What I meant by “getting ahead of the bit” is that Maggie was REALLY leaning into the bit, I felt like she was pulling me down the road with her mouth. It was a distinctly different feeling on the lines than I have experienced with her before, or what I felt when I was driving the other mare. Maybe I used a poor choice of words in trying to describe what she was doing. She only relaxed and let me keep even moderate tension on the lines when we got about a 100 feet or so from the gate to the place. Otherwise it was a tug of war, which is not real rewarding. I tried bringing her to a full stop several times, letting her relax for a minute and then starting her up again. This did seem to help a little bit, but within 150 feet or so she was back to tugging on the bit again.

I can tell when both of them are concerned about something that they are approaching, because they both tend to cock their head with the nose tucked toward their chest and they get their head way up, ears almost pointing at whatever concerns them. They also eventually come to a stop with their front legs braced. I think I can detect this in time to pull them up and let my wife get on the lead rope. I will be home this Friday, Saturday and Sunday so we are going to get 3 days to find out.

I don’t have anything to lose by giving your suggestion a shot, as trying to push them past the thing that concerned them didn’t work all that well. I’ll let you know how it works out.

Stephen R.

[WVDrafty]

My mares will do the same thing at various times. I think sometimes it is in defiance when first taking off. Sometimes because they don’t want to be seperated and sometimes they are in a hurry to get back to the barn or each other. It is no fun when one is grabbing the bit and tucking their head. I took one mare around the farm for over an hour Monday evening and she drove like a dream. Hooked her in the barn and walked out quitely and the lines just lay between my fingers the whole time. Within 20 yards of the barn and she begin to push, and in the barn we went, so I brought her back out and in about 5 times to show her how. She walked in but not with slack in the lines. I was confident but she was too.

[Author]

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