ground skiding

[Joshua Kingsley]

How much could one horse reasonably ground skid?

Would a pair of small ponies be able to handle 8 foot logs?

I know it would vary from horse to horse but what would be considered as a “reasonable” skid?

Any info or comments would be appreciated. Thanks Josh

[Jim Ostergard]

Josh,
With Rusty I do all my logging with a single. He is getting old so I don’t work he as hard as I did even two years ago. He routinely will ground skid 24′ 18″ white pine on the ground. I mean back and forth all day with that. I tend to use the arch for larger stuff to get the butt up. The arch will enable him to triple his load. Hope this is helpful.
jim

[Joshua Kingsley]

Jim,
I have an older draft gelding and two 10 hh shetland/minis that I am planning to attempt to pull som fire wood with.

I was hitched single to a tire that weighs over 100 pounds with one of the little studs and he pulled that around with out much fanfare so I was wondering about getting some “real” work done with the litte guys. I have 2 that are both studs I know it can be a real handfull with two pony stallions but hey you work what you own and I am still trying to get funds around to replace some of the big ones I sold over a year ago. I was just wondering if anyone had done it or had any ideas. Thanks josh

[Tim Harrigan]

Here is a link to a report that we did a few years ago in measuring the pulling forces for a 1500 lb log over snow-covered or frozen ground and over bare ground with tongs, a logging arch and a few other methods. In our work the arch reduced the pulling force about one-third compared to ground skidding with tongs. So we could move the same load with less effort, or increase the size of the load by about one-third with the same effort by using an arch.

http://www.tillersinternational.org/farming/resources_techguides/EstimatingLoggingDraftTechGuide.pdf

[TaylorJohnson]

Depending on the size of loads you are taking out will matter a lot . People would be surprised at what you can get done with a small horse. I have a friend that had a pony that was a pulling machine . One day it started to rain and he had a wagon full of hay in the yard . All that was harnessed was that little shaggy pony so he thought well I will try . That little pony pulled it into the shed he said he was really surprised. He sold him to an English guy that was into horse pulls. The friend that owners him is a harness maker so he has some nice gear for even the little ones.
I think a lot of people that have horses could get by with a lot smaller horses than they have. Less feed most of the time they have good feet . If you make an animal be use full they will be worth having. I wont even own a dog that don’t work , not that I don’t like a pet ( all my animals I love ) but they have to earn there keep . Taylor Johnson

[Joshua Kingsley]

Taylor,
I under stand what you mean all my animals are pets but if they don’t contribute in some way to the farm they have to go. My dogs work the cows including the little 12 pound sheltie.

I am getting some new lines and a collar for one of the little studs so as soon as they come in we will be headed into the small wood lot. I’ll try to get some pics of the little guys skidding wood:D
It should be fun they weigh in about 450 or 500 each. Chunky little fellas They are for sale so if they are seen working like that I a might get a buyer who knows.

Thanks for the information on the log draft I will try to keep that in mind as I set up my hitches.

I believe we will start small and light and work up to some bigger wood. I do know that they will pull a lot for their size, I had two hooked up last fall with a friends harnesses and they were pulling some good sized poles out.

[Scott G]

I currently use a single, spotted draft gelding 16hh, ~1600#. He is the perfect size for what I do which is primarily thinning work in conifers in mountainous terrain.

The general rule is a horse can pull his own weight. But that is very general and is assumed on flat, smooth ground. It is not the weight an animal should/can be expected to pull repeatedly. I generally, in my mind, think in terms of 1/4 to 1/3 of body weight for all day repeated pulls if the animal is in condition on flat ground. Uphill you are going to be very limited, downhill you can pull a helluva load.

In order to know what you can pull comes from experience with your animal(s) and knowing the weight of your wood. Out here I primarily work in lodgepole & ponderosa pine. When it comes to estimating weight I like to figure of off cubic volume rather than bf. bf is based on a scale (scribner, doyle, international) of “supposed” recoverable lumber. It routinely underestimates recoverable volume with todays mills and does not take into consideration, slabs/bark, trim, etc..

The pine I work in averages slightly more than 50#/cuft. You can calculate the amount of cuft in a log various ways. I use the Smalian formula (something I won’t get into per another post) which is a great down & dirty way for me. Again, with experience you’ll just know. At 50#/cu ft my single gelding can ground skid, on flat ground, a 16’6″ log that is 10″d on the big end and 6″ small end that contains 11 cuft and weighs 550# all day long. Downhill a load that is multiples of that is easily yarded. That is why it is said that the best show for a horse is a short distance, slight downhill skid. Uphill, much less of a load although you can use blocks in trees with rope/cable to get stuff out of a hole with your horse(s) up on top.

With an arch you can further your capacity greatly by reducing the amount of resistance/friction for larger logs and use it for hauling pre-bunches as well. A quality arch is in my immediate future!

Horse logging is definitely a thinking man’s game….

[Scott G]

BTW Joshua,

I do not like to skid short logs (i.e. 8 footers) due to the tendency for them to flip up if you hit a stump, rock, etc..

The tail end can easily do an end-over-end behind you when you’re not looking and smack you or your horse. In the skidding world, bad juju…

[TaylorJohnson]

I don’t like skidding 8′ wood either it will knock your brains out quick fast and in a hurry. If I were going to skid 8′ wood I would be running longer lines so I was well away from the log, then you would have to watch your horses. I knew a guy once that got leveled after my cousin told him to get longer line, stick of aspen hit a stub came up and drove him face first into the ground. He jumped up all scared like people do when they get knocked stupid but knot killed, looked around to see if the world was still there and went on his way to the landing. He got longer lines after that. Taylor Johnson

[Joshua Kingsley]

When I was logging with my big teams I always used to skid 16′ 6″ or more in length I was just thinking as far as getting into bigger wood with the little guys I could use a log scoot or just skid smaller lengths. I would love to get back in the woods but alas it all depends on the doctors for now… Big tree and 50′ up with a saddle and spikes combined with a wind at the wrong time means lots of back injury. Sooo….. Now I will see what they say as for releasing me back to work in any capicity. Right now I am trying to keep fit by messing around. Thanks for all the advice. Josh

[Scott G]

“I knew a guy once that got leveled after my cousin told him to get longer line, stick of aspen hit a stub came up and drove him face first into the ground. He jumped up all scared like people do when they get knocked stupid but knot killed, looked around to see if the world was still there and went on his way to the landing. He got longer lines after that.”

Isn’t that why they call it “the school of hard knocks” 😀 It was great to talk to you last night, Taylor. Take care and life is bound to get better. 😉

[Carl Russell]

Tim Harrigan;11835 wrote:

Here is a link to a report that we did a few years ago in measuring the pulling forces for a 1500 lb log over snow-covered or frozen ground and over bare ground with tongs, a logging arch and a few other methods. In our work the arch reduced the pulling force about one-third compared to ground skidding with tongs. So we could move the same load with less effort, or increase the size of the load by about one-third with the same effort by using an arch.

http://www.tillersinternational.org/farming/resources_techguides/EstimatingLoggingDraftTechGuide.pdf

I would caution not to make these assumptions. It may require less force to move a log forward with an arch, but the horse cannot apply their power as efficiently in this way, as they can when hitched loose to a log ground skidding.

There are lots of reasons why arches are valuable tools, but requiring that the draft be hitched high reduces the pulling capacity of the horse. This is often overlooked because the arch is a much easier way to hook to larger loads than ground skidding, but if the draft is low, then the horse can apply their power more efficiently to lifting the load.

There is more to moving heavy loads than mere foot/pounds. A horse will learn how to use their power. A horse that is given the opportunity to learn to lift a load while ground skidding, will learn to apply more of its power capacity to the work than when it is hitched on an arch. So even though the load may be moved easier with the arch, the horse won’t be as able to apply its power as efficiently to the task as it would if it were hitched to the log on the ground. This will also affect how much repetitive skidding can be done in a day.

The other factor of advantage to ground skidding is the ability to pull off-line more easily, to start an extra heavy load, giving the animal the ability to overcome inertia, and to move the load.

The biggest factor affecting the horses ability to skid loads of a certain weight, hitched in any manner, is how the animal is used. If they are given the chance to use their power efficiently, and given the opportunity to rest when they have pulled hard, then they will learn to pull more than anyone can calculate from some rule of thumb formula. Hitch them, drive them, encourage them, and show them respect for their effort, and you’ll find out what they can do.

Carl

[TaylorJohnson]

Hey Scott it was a good visit for sure. Ya that guy I am talking about is my cousins best friend and those two use to work for me sometimes . They were quit a pair and fun to watch. They were best friends but my cousin and him would get into about 2 or 3 scraps a week. My cousin would always win and in 5 minutes its like it never happened. They competed in every thing running , chain saw races, who could cut the most in one day, wrestling, rock throwing , ax throwing , pistil shooting, you name it they would have a contest and at the end many times it would end in a fist fight. They were and still are best friends,,, what a couple of clowns not the type of boys you take to town a hole lot ya know what I mean. They were and are both pretty fare loggers but my cousin did lose an arm in a logging accident so he is limited but still works a crew and runs an old iron mule forwarder has a small saw that he cuts fire wood with .
Joshua, I am looking forward to pic of your little guys working , I think it sounds like fun and I bet you will be able to get a lot done. If you could put up a pic of them even if they are not working I would just like to see them. And hey if those Dr.s tell you that you cant use your common sense but don’t let them keep you down , sometimes they can hurt you worse than the injuries. Taylor Johnson

[Scott G]

Carl,
I agree to a point. The basis of my statement was that many folks have no idea what the wood weighs and therefore, have a tough time judging their turns. Either way too light for what the animal is capable of or way too heavy to the point that the animal becomes balky and they wonder why.

I routinely pull significantly more on the flats than the example I threw out. It was based on an average on flat bare ground. I’ll pull heavy skids alternating with light, and give the horse a good breather afterwards. The truth is that flat ground is at a premium here and I’m rarely working on it. With a downhill skid I can pretty much pull the mountain down. Using a single works really well for the work I’m doing and the wood I’m usually in. A team would normally be overkill and wouldn’t allow me to sneak through some of the spacing I’m working with. The exception is pre-bunching to a central forwarding trail and using a team with cart or forwarding trailer to make the long haul back to the landing with a decent load. I’d equate it to the timber types & methods you see in Scandinavia. Every once in a while I’ll get a pumpkin and buck it to something thats manageable but marketable or use “mirrors & lights”. Its amazing what you can move/pull off with rigging (blocks, rope, high lead, etc..).

Often times, however, I am in the “all day, every day” mode. Especially if I’m working in a lodgepole stand. All of the timber is fairly uniform and of the same diameter class. Gets to feeling like an assembly line operation working the same type/size of material all day but I actually enjoy it. The elevation zone (high country), uniformity, and marketability of lodgepole make it my favorite type of show for the summer months.

There is no way of calculating “heart” and we all know thats what really matters when its time to “git’ after it”…

One other thing per your post, more of a question since you folks use a cart routinely and I’m just getting ready to use one for my operation: doesn’t the lower center of gravity, due to the weight of the choked hitch on the back of the arch/cart, lower the draft point if the cart, pole/shafts, and harness are adjusted correctly? Seems to me you would follow the line of draft all of the way to the choker & hitch… Just curious and always learning.

[john plowden]

I try to go with 1/4 to 1/3 horse weight to last all day -There are the heavier logs that need to go as well – and the horses will pull – just not all day – 130-180bf pine is nice for the 1800# guy –
Terrain and length of hitch need to be considered –
It’s hard to explain here but the point of pivot or how far back and below the wheels are from the choker hitch point is key to decreasing draft when using an arch –
John

[Author]

Posts