Harnessing the Powers of Youtube for Good

[CharlyBonifaz]

There are a handful of bulls approved for semen export to the UK

I know of “Tempter” only (Dickinson Cattle Co.Inc.) as being approved for import into the EU. Do you know of any other??
elke

[bivol]

Ixy, ayshire as a foundation could very well work, too, no less cause they’re tougher than holsteins.
up i mentioned holstein crosses, they have dark hooves after jersey, and smaller, lighter, livelier, and also have hybrid vigour, which i hope should neutralize problems of bad health.
still, ayshire should be an even better foundation than h.

question: why’d you want texas longhorns, besides the horns?
i’m sure their semen is more expensive than j., if the calves are female, they have far less value than ayshXj. calves, or hXj. calves.

i don’t know about brown swiss, pesonaly i’d get it off the table, cause they tend to be in the slow gear. do you need slow oxen for cart work? better stick to ayshire as foundation….

[Nat(wasIxy)]

Well, personally I don’t know where this thing about slow brown swiss comes from – mine was really quick and clever and eager to please – loved jumping and doing tricks. Anne’s ‘Circe’ showjumps, and went to replace bruno isilker’s sybil – another showjumping swiss!

sadly I just had mine slaughtered as he had learnt he could get away from me and from there his behaviour just got worse and worse and he started using his horns on me…

Jerseys are too highly bred in this county IMO, they are small and dainty, skinny etc. I would still prefer ayrshire, or BRITISH friesian (very different to holsteins) or something that occurred to me today – gloucesters!

texas longhorns seem very tough and athletic, a lot are used for riding already. Also, coat colours! what a range!

[CharlyBonifaz]

why’d you want texas longhorns, besides the horns?

their looks (colours); supposedly friendly, easy going characters, used to “work”, and… did I mention their looks? 😮

[bivol]

@CharlyBonifaz 11427 wrote:

their looks (colours); supposedly friendly, easy going characters, used to “work”, and… did I mention their looks? 😮

i agree. but i thougt when everything is put together, the semen cost too. and you’d have to AI five cows to have a remotely good chance of having male calves.

ixy, you did the right thing.
i wonder how, and if, one can tell on calves if one’s ox is going to become unpredictable when older.

[Nat(wasIxy)]

Going from my own experiences only, it seems to be the confident/cheeky calves that become problematic. When I was first training Angus there was a shorthorn calf in with him – I would have picked him over Angus except it was so unafraid of me I just had a gut feeling it would be aggressive when it grew up. I was right – I ended up having to watch my back when i went in the pen as the second my back was truned it would butt me! I was told it was ‘only playing’ – but that’s not funny.

My brown swiss aimed a kick at me the day I got him home at 8 weeks – that was my first warning sign but I was assured calves aren’t mean at 8 weeks old…

[bivol]

@Ixy 11455 wrote:

Going from my own experiences only, it seems to be the confident/cheeky calves that become problematic. When I was first training Angus there was a shorthorn calf in with him – I would have picked him over Angus except it was so unafraid of me I just had a gut feeling it would be aggressive when it grew up. I was right – I ended up having to watch my back when i went in the pen as the second my back was truned it would butt me! I was told it was ‘only playing’ – but that’s not funny.

My brown swiss aimed a kick at me the day I got him home at 8 weeks – that was my first warning sign but I was assured calves aren’t mean at 8 weeks old…

guess one’s gut feeling turns out to be more valuable than is commonly given credit for. i always listen to mine, and mom never to hers. she always says she should have…

i don’t know who told you that butting was only play, but he/she is WRONG.
cattle test their dominance by butting like play, it’s how it starts, but it’s no game, not ever, no matter how small they are, they’re looking to undermine your authority, and it should be dealt swiftly with.
aggression towards humans is a big no-no.

still, i wonder, if one starts a calf, could it work to train them to stop, to get into a situation where a calf can butt you, and when he does, he gets it. and i mean really gets it. i know that might sound cruel, but maybe that’d sour him off trying to display agression towards you. it’s what a bull would do, more or less.

hm…. or ,maybe, if one can, get a new calf after all…:confused:

[OldKat]

@bivol 11473 wrote:

guess one’s gut feeling turns out to be more valuable than is commonly given credit for. i always listen to mine, and mom never to hers. she always says she should have…

i don’t know who told you that butting was only play, but he/she is WRONG.
cattle test their dominance by butting like play, it’s how it starts, but it’s no game, not ever, no matter how small they are, they’re looking to undermine your authority, and it should be dealt swiftly with.
aggression towards humans is a big no-no.

still, i wonder, if one starts a calf, could it work to train them to stop, to get into a situation where a calf can butt you, and when he does, he gets it. and i mean really gets it. i know that might sound cruel, but maybe that’d sour him off trying to display agression towards you. it’s what a bull would do, more or less.

hm…. or ,maybe, if one can, get a new calf after all…:confused:

bivol, I think the answer is yes. I have a yearling Red Angus bull calf in a lot with 3 horses and his father. Dad, named “Oklahoma!” weighs about 2400 to 2500 pounds when fleshy, “Junior” weighs maybe 1,100 pounds right now.

Starting about a month or so ago when I would bring out feed for them Junior started getting aggressive; because he wanted to eat before his dad pushed him aside. Sure, I could have put a fence between them, but I want my cattle docile no matter what the situation is. Anyway, he started putting his head down and tossing it at me and bellowing. He NEVER touched me, so I let it slide. That was a BIG mistake. About two weeks ago he butted me, HARD, in the buttocks. Luckily I was moving away from him, so no damage was done.

However, I decided to put a stop to this nonsense before it went any further. I had on a pair of heavy work boots and I kicked him as hard as I could right in the mouth. He looked stunned for a second, then put down his head again and bellowed. When he started moving toward me, he got another pop right in the mouth … again, as hard as I could deliver it. He got the message and walked away shaking his head. Sound cruel? Probably does, but in another year or so when he weighs a ton or more it will be a little too late to correct the problem. He could seriously injure someone and I just cannot allow that.

Interestingly, just today Oklahoma put his head down, pawed the ground and bellowed at me. He is almost 8 years old and has NEVER displayed any aggression toward me or anyone else. He is also the best out of 5 bulls that I currently own. Guess what he got? Yep, the size 12 Timberland work boot right in the kisser. He bellowed again, and got his discipline again. It took four times, but I don’t care if it would have taken 400 times. If anyone has a bovine of either gender that seriously challenges you and you cannot bring yourself to discipline them, you best send that individual to the slaughter pen least someone (and it may be you) ends up grievously injured if not killed. I know many people think this isn’t true, but my four decades of handling cattle tells me otherwise.

[Nat(wasIxy)]

I’m all up for hurting them before they hurt me – I kicked a young bull we have int he face the other day. i was in the field petting Angus and this young bull didn’t like me doing that so he marched up shaking is head at me. The kick sorted him out, for now, but he’ll be burgers in december.

[bivol]

@OldKat 11477 wrote:

About two weeks ago he butted me, HARD, in the buttocks. Luckily I was moving away from him, so no damage was done.

However, I decided to put a stop to this nonsense before it went any further. I had on a pair of heavy work boots and I kicked him as hard as I could right in the mouth. He looked stunned for a second, then put down his head again and bellowed. When he started moving toward me, he got another pop right in the mouth … again, as hard as I could deliver it. He got the message and walked away shaking his head. Sound cruel? Probably does, but in another year or so when he weighs a ton or more it will be a little too late to correct the problem. He could seriously injure someone and I just cannot allow that.

cruel? don’t think so.

necessary? absolutely.

a practical way to keep cattle at bay, and to discipline them if they try to test dominance. did you kick them in the nose? it’s their most sensible part, so i can understand them giving in.

also, think it’s good thing you didn’t use some tool, like a goad or a whip, because they would try to test your dominance when you wouldn’t have that tool with you.

herd animals have herd hierarchy, and if we don’t stay on the top of their hierarchy, they will try to climb to the top.
i remember reading a story about a woman who was terrorized by her pet pig. she bought a little piglet and spoiled it, and asserted no firm dominance over it. anyway, the pig grew into a fully grown boar, and started bullying her “master” to give him food. it even went so far as to lock her up in the house until she gave him food. i think the pig was taken by rspca, or sth.

one word for that pig: sausage. *period*

at first i thought that junior just walking away (as opposed to running away) was too little, that he maybe thought it as a draw.

but now my guess is that this running away thing in dominance comes from lost duels between bulls. the looser has to be chased out of the surrounding of the herd. establishing dominance over herd members doesn’t require chasing away a subordinate animal, i think…:confused:

i have some new vids, too.

a nice resolution footage of a guy plowing with an ard plow in Peru, judging by the plow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkdBI_wLvPo

an old lady plowing behind her cows
http:
//www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGo-Jb2qPFY
there are three such vids, click on the vid menu on the right.

a nice horse plowing fast.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0QXQMLTlzc&feature=related

qa man burying(?) potatoes with horse and plow.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkRCKOt6EFU&feature=related

and the lastvid is showing two donkeys yoked and plowing, a rare and valuable vid of equines yoked.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AnQDh7ZCoY&feature=related

[OldKat]

You are correct bivol; when I said I kicked them in the mouth, I suspect that I actually hit the front of the mouth AND the nose.

Ever noticed when you have cattle in a squeeze chute or sometimes even in an alleyway that they put their heads down? They do NOT like their nose getting banged around, they are trying to protect their noses from getting bumped. That is why I go for that part of the face to establish dominance. Trying to “spank” them on the rump, the shoulder or worse yet the top of the poll will only result in broken blood vessels in your hand and doesn’t deter the beast in the least bit.

I understand what you are saying about Junior not moving away fast enough. I fully expected him to challenge me again, and he may. So far however, he wants no part of standing up to me.

[CharlyBonifaz]

an old lady plowing behind her cows

bivol,
you made my day 😀
finally some cattle slower than mx ox
elke

[bivol]

@OldKat 11491 wrote:

You are correct bivol; when I said I kicked them in the mouth, I suspect that I actually hit the front of the mouth AND the nose.

Ever noticed when you have cattle in a squeeze chute or sometimes even in an alleyway that they put their heads down? They do NOT like their nose getting banged around, they are trying to protect their noses from getting bumped. That is why I go for that part of the face to establish dominance. Trying to “spank” them on the rump, the shoulder or worse yet the top of the poll will only result in broken blood vessels in your hand and doesn’t deter the beast in the least bit.

I understand what you are saying about Junior not moving away fast enough. I fully expected him to challenge me again, and he may. So far however, he wants no part of standing up to me.

nice to know, i did notice the bulls in bull running in Spain have their heads down, but i always thought they’d do it to protect themselves from people and to attack, but i didn’t think they use their horns as a bumper! smart critters!:D

as for junior, there’s always a willing size 12 boot! although i think he’ll challenge you more carefully if (better, when) he chalenges you. that was a fast pain he was unprepared against, so his challenge should be meeker at start, i suppose… but don’t take my word for it, be careful, and at the slightest sign, fire!

an idea how to put him in his place?
cattle test and defend dominance usually when they fight over something of their interest, like feed bowl or water. so instead of waiting for junior to challenge you again, i.e. him taking the initiative, you can scare him off the feeding bowl or something, to prove you’re stronger. so you have the initiative. maybe use an electro-shock, or a pointed goad, a stick to hit the nose, or the good old boot, but drive him off. that will send the message that you can challenge him anytime, anywhere, and away from his personal interest, food. maybe feed the herd some food prior to the test so he’s not all desperate?

i had such an idea when taming wild oxen, when they’re hungry and want to eat, to come to the fence where their food is, and devoid them of access for a short time by a pointed goad. that would send the message i’m dominant, i guess. after that they can eat. once the dominance was established.

anyway, that’s just an untested idea, feel free to discard it at any ground, because i don’t know just how dangerous it is to stand between a bull and his feedbowl.

Charly, no problem, glad you liked them!

[bivol]

here i found some vids of bulls working:

pulling a cart in an obstacle (holes too) course in a head yoke
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyCwdO-KmrI&feature=related

plowing with ard plow in Bolivia. note how one throws dirt with its legs as a challenge.
but they do seem more enthusiastic to pull than oxen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7EqH2WhZQ8

[OldKat]

I have an update for you bivol. Today I was working around my lot and I turned old Oklahoma! and Junior into about a 2 acre trap that is adjacent to my lot, but which I don’t own. It is behind Albert, the neighbors house. He has no livestock so he lets me use it. It only has an electric fence on two of the sides, and if anything gets past that it is on to open highway so I generally graze it only when I am going to be nearby.

I was moving some round bales around with my tractor and then went up to the barn to measure out feed for the critters. I heard a vehicle drive up and heard my gate open so I stepped out to see Roger, the guy that leases the property that is across the fence from my lot and Alberts property. He told me that my bull was in his pasture fighting with his bull. I looked behind Albert’s house and sure enough Oklahoma! was gone. Junior was there, but the old man had split. We hopped in our trucks and drove around to the barn on the place he leases just in time to see his Charolais bull chase Oklahoma! right through a barbed wire fence and into the area where Roger stores his round bales. The Charolais was right behind Oklahoma! and they both went through the fence.

Oklahoma! was looking for the hole in the fence where he came in, as the Charolais bull, Rusty, was working him over pretty good. He finally got up behind some round bales and worked himself up into a corner where that property meets a fourth place, right directly behind my lot. So I came up the fence line with a bucket of feed hoping to lure my guy out. He was so winded that he could only stand there puffing. I cautiously came up beside him, because I could tell he was pretty agitated. I stepped near his rear to try to drive him out of there, only to meet an even madder Rusty coming up the back row of the round bales.

When I stepped between the two, Rusty charged me. So I stepped back behind the round bales, thinking “Oklahoma!, buddy you are pretty much on your own here. I’m not going to get run over by this guy to bail you out!” I think Rusty was startled by my being there, so he stopped momentarily and started blowing at me. I figured he was a little unsure of himself, otherwise he would have kept coming. Had he, I would have either had to been able to jump up on the round bales or get run over by a 2,400 pound Red Angus and/or about a 2,000 pound Charolais. The idea of being caught between the two of these mature bulls had very little appeal.

All of a sudden I thought about our discussion on this thread, so I took off my baseball style cap and waved it over the Charolais face; keeping the corner of the round bale between me and him. Sure enough, he looked up at it and when he did I made a fist and put all of my 270 pounds into his nose. He literally staggered backward. When he did, I stepped out and gave him another one right in the nose, or at least tried. When he saw me come out he wheeled and I just clipped his nose with a round house. Roger had opened the gate to that lot and Rusty went past him like his butt was on fire. Roger asked me “What happened back there?”, so I told him what I did. He laughed and said; “I’ll be damned, I would have never thought about doing that”. Well, quite honestly had we not been discussing it recently I wouldn’t have either.

Everything worked out ok. Roger and I pushed Oklahoma! through what was left of the fence that he had gone through. I got him back on my lot and looked him over, it appears that he is okay. Mainly just had his ego bruised a bit. He was pretty tired. I think I’ll put up some more electric fence before I allow him back over in that trap again. Thought about you, and I knew you would enjoy hearing about the big day Oklahoma! and OldKat had. 🙂

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