Health care advice

[dominiquer60]

I am a ways off from getting a pair of bull calves, I could purchase a book, I may anyways, but I figured that it would be nice to have more than the one opinion that the book may offer. I know that if I purchase a pair of calves it would best best it they were from the same farm and both had an ample amount of colostrum in them at the start. I am guessing that having a supply of fresh milk is better/cheaper than replacer. I know the stable that they are kept in should be well ventilated to reduce respiratory problems and that they should not be allowed to start sucking on each other.

What other concerns should I address as a potential first time calf owner? Vaccinations? they may be in close contact with a beef herd, I know that they are vaccinated for a couple of issues. Is there a way to do all this without getting a vet and therefore the NAIS involved. I don’t plan on ever bringing them anywhere that a state vet is involved because I don’t want the ID hassle or all the tests, bills and paper work. I thank you in advance for any of your thoughts on this topic.:)

Be Well,
Erika

[sanhestar]

I’d ask about the health status of the mother (don’t know if brucellosis or tuberkulosis are still an issue in the US) and her worming status (worm larvae can pass to the calf with the milk). Also what vaccinations she had (antibodies will then pass via colostrum to the calf).

Vaccinating the calfs: not adviseable in the first weeks, for as long as maternal antibodies (from the colostrum) are present they will block antibody development via vaccination (they will attach to the vaccinated virus or bacteria and neutralise it with no chance for the calves immune system to react). Maternal antibodies vanish around at 8-12 weeks of age.

Early vaccination can also cause the undeveloped immune system of the calf to collaps (too much too fast) and some added ingredients (mostly the thiomersal aka quicksilver) can pass the blood/brain barrier in very young animals or cause damage to nerve sheaths (the need a few weeks as well to fully develop and shield the nerves). Calfs should be vaccinated not earlier as 6 weeks old, best age is around 12 weeks.

So you may think about alternative means of protection from infections for the period between 6 and 12 weeks.

And think of doing a fecal exam at around 3-4 weeks old for worms because even a regularly wormed mother cow can carry inactive larvae in her udder (which won’t be effected by normal worming procedures) that become active after birthing and the production of milk.

edit: ask for Johne’s disease (resp. testing)

[Howie]

sanhestar

You mentioned Johne’s.:(:mad: I think when you look at a calf for an ox it should be at the top of your list for things to look for. It is running rampant in the dairy cattle today. The last report that I had it is 100% fatal.:mad: The animal starves to death. There is not a lot of it in the beef cattle.

[sanhestar]

Howie,

you’re right. Johne’s isn’t much of an issue with goats so it almost slipped my mind (still converting from goat health issues to cattle health issues).

the problem with testing, so I heard, is, that the tests aren’t 100% reliable (and there’s a long incubation period, too).

[CharlyBonifaz]

talking Johne’s
the very best method to prevent spread of infection in the newborn calves is to raise them separately: no contact to their mothers (especially their manure); which is actually exactly what you will be doing if you raise them by hand :rolleyes:
elke

[Howie]

sanhestar:)

Johne’s is ingested as a calf, the amount that he ingests seems to determine how long it will take to become serious. I seen a 8 year ox die of it. In Aug. he weight 2750 pounds the next April he was down to between 8 and 9 hundered pounds. When the owners had him put down. They never stop eating, but it just goes straight through them. They just can’t get the nutrition out of it.:mad::confused:

[dominiquer60]

Thanks everyone for the replies.

I know that there are Johnes free herds out there, not most of them but some. If buying calves from a certified free herd is not possible I assume the vet has to get involved to test the calves? I know BVD-Pi tests are mandatory to go to a fair, is that the same or similar to Johnes? and here in the states what vaccinations are recommended at what time? What are the arguments for and against vaccinations? Are they available through a vet supply catalog? I know many don’t ship to NY with out an Rx. Sorry for so many questions, I know that many of you have different opinions than what the government recommends. I could just ask my state vet friends but since animal ID I am not very friendly with them and I am sure that there is another side to what they recommend. Thank you all again, I definitely forgot about Johnes, dairy health class was so long ago and it pertained to large scale industrial milk production that most of those notes have been ashes for a while now.

Be Well,

Erika

[Crabapple Farm]

Well, Erika, I’ll put out a contrarian opinion on the vaccine issue for you. I’m not a big vaccination fan, we don’t vaccinate the livestock for anything (i’m sure someone will think that horrible, but there it is). For what it’s worth, my daughter (2 yrs old) has only had a tetanus vaccine.
I recognize that there are some diseases out there that are real bad, and that may warrant vaccination. However, I tend to look at Health as a positive attribute (something you have) rather than a negative one (a lack of disease). Which is to say, I see disease as a sign of a lack of Health, rather than Health as a sign of a lack of disease. My understanding of vaccinations is that they are (or at least can be) an immunological shortcut, leading overall to a less effective immune system. They supply specific immunity but without a foundation, sort of like an over-educated specialist with no common sense or street smarts. I honestly have looked into human vaccines more than livestock vaccines, but I think that it holds true.
Vaccination, with antibiotics, props up and allows the modern system of livestock rearing. It doesn’t seem like all the vaccinating is making all those conventionally raised animals healthy.
If you aren’t planning on bringing the calves out in public or into contact with a lot of other animals, and if you aren’t going to go hang out in the sale barn then go home and do chores in the same clothes, then look for calves from a healthy herd, from someone who you can trust to be honest with you. Ask them if they’ve had problems with anything, and what they vaccinate against. And don’t worry too much about all the nasty diseases that could kill them. The commercial dairy folks have milk truck drivers, AI guys, and vets visiting their barns regularly. While they might scrub their boots, they are still going from farm to farm. Not to mention most commercial dairies buy in or sell animals fairly frequently – and I haven’t yet seen a custom hauler scrub THEIR boots. With that sort of traffic from farm to farm, there is more reason to worry.
-Tevis

[sanhestar]

oh, that’s a can of worms to open.

There’s sufficient research about vaccination in dogs and cats (and as mammals the results relate to other species, as well), over-vaccination, adverse reactions, vaccination intervals, chronic illness caused by vaccines, etc.

Cattle and other stock normally don’t live long enough to start showing the negative effects of vaccination (or exposure to the heavy metals included in most vaccines) but with a pair of oxen that’s supposed to live a long live……

Research in dogs and cats show that a proper immunization will protect a live long without the need for annual booster vaccination (there are some exceptions, rabies f.e.) and there have been studies in Switzerland on horses that show protection against tetanus (highly feared among horse people) for up to 10 years.

If you want to do your own research, you’ll find tons of information if you google for Dr. Ron Schultz and also Dr. Jean Dodd who both have done extensive research.

That’s the scientific point of view.

Adding to that the homoeopathic point of view, every vaccination is a intense and strong disturbance of an individuals health.

Starting with the point of entrance: vaccines are administered mostly by injection while bacteria and viruses enter via contact with skin or mucosa in most cases (some by bites) and therefore causing an other immune response than vaccines. Vaccines are more like a raid than a knock on a door.

Then the administration/exposure to heavy metals (aluminium and thiomersal are the most common but formaldehyd can also be found in vaccines) and antibiotica (added to the vaccine) for stronger (?!) immune response. Administration of foreign protein (vaccines cultivated on eggs or bovine cells or ape cells), giving reason for the development of allergic reactions.

Next the practice to vaccinate against more than one illness at a time. It’s very uncommon in nature to have more than one pathogen present at a given time but most vaccines contain pathogens against more than one illness.

[CharlyBonifaz]

It’s very uncommon in nature to have more than one pathogen present at a given time

😀 sorry, but at every single moment your body takes care of a huge variety of pathogens, potential pathogens; it’s our immune system that securely puts them away; definitely more than one ! at any given time…… :rolleyes:
elke

[becorson]

First of all, my advice is to get a book or two. There aren’t that many on oxen and they aren’t expensive. ( i like to read and look at pictures, so trust me to recommend a book as part of your adventure with oxen.)
thoughts on the other issues that have been raised here: (comments are for information only and not meant to replace the advice of your veterinarian!)

vaccination IS a complex subject. the more you know about it, the more often you will find yourself answering questions with “it depends….”
whether or not you vaccinate, if you raise enough calves, you will lose a few. I think vaccination makes a difference in a minority of cases, practically speaking.
In the big picture, colostrum is the biggest factor in a healthy calf. A calf that gets enough colostrum will have some immunity to the same diseases that his mother was immune to, and those are the same diseases he is most likely to be exposed to. His mother has immunity to most of the the bacteria in her own manure for example, and unless the calf gets colostrum, he will NOT have any immunity to them. he can get sick and die from any of them.
of course, if you are taking the calf away from his home farm and exposing him to a whole bunch of new bacteria, viruses and etc., his mother’s colustrum is n’t going to help him unless his mother was vaccinated against those diseases. for example, a newborn calf from a cow vaccinated against rabies will have some immunity against rabies for a few months. but if his mother was NOT vaccinated, the calf will not have immunity no matter how much colostrum he gets. that is one reason why calves from auctions so often get sick, even if they did get colostrum at home.

About Johnes: Howie is right that the bacterium that causes Johne’s is present on many dairy farms in North America. Cattle get exposed to it in the first minutes and hours after birth, through the manure of adult cattle. a speck of manure on a piece of straw or on the dam’s teat is enough to expose the calf. most of the exposed calves fight off the infection and never become “johne’s positive”. a smaller percentage get a temporary infection and and eventually fight it off. these animals will have a postive blood test becuase they have been exposed to the disease, but they do not HAVE Johnes.
An even smaller percentage of animals that are exposed to the Johnes’ bacterium develop an infection and can’t fight it off. The bacteria live in the intestines and the lymph nodes and do enough damage that it interferes with digstion so the animal gets thinner and thinner. At some point, the animal with Johne’s disease starts passing bacteria in the manure, and the bactceria can survive a long time on the ground and in bedding: so this is how new calves get infected.
Adult cattle that are exposed to the bacterium don’t seem to get it. it seems to happen in the first few hours, like Howie said. calves from a Johnes positive mother that are whisked away immediately after birth, before they suckle or chew on straw in the calving stall, don’t develop Johnes IF they get colostrum from a healthy cow.

so, if you are followinng me here: you can get a calf from a Johne’s postiive farm, even a Johnes’ positive mother, but it’s important to know how the calf was handled if you want to be sure your calf won’t end up getting Johnes.

In the past few years there have been some big improvements in Johne’s testing. The lab where i work can do a test called PCR on manure; it is quite accurate and takes less than a week. costs about 50.00 at our lab.

[becorson]

should have proofread more carefully. in the paragraph where i say “vaccination makes a difference in a minority of cases”, i am referring to calves that stay on the home farm.
Vaccination does make a difference in calves that are taken to sales barns within the first few weeks of life but it’s the mother cow that needs to be vaccinated not the baby calf. . sorry if i’m being confusing.

[becorson]

don’t mean to monopolize the conversation, but wanted to add that milk replacer is generally cheaper than real milk, that is why dairy farmers usually feed their calves replacer. But if you or someone you know has a cow, it might be different. if you use millk replacer, get one that is 100% milk based. statistically there are more problems if you feed a plant (soy) based milk replacer. i’ll shut up for now!!

[sanhestar]

@CharlyBonifaz 5906 wrote:

😀 sorry, but at every single moment your body takes care of a huge variety of pathogens, potential pathogens; it’s our immune system that securely puts them away; definitely more than one ! at any given time…… :rolleyes:
elke

oh yes, but can you tell me if it’s common, f.e. for a dog to be exposed to distemper, parvo, leptospirosis, rabies, kennel cough and hepatitis in the exact same moment?

Yes, we are surrounded by bacteria and viruses and only a fraction of it will make it through the immune defence. And that’s what’s “wrong” with the vaccination scheme: the injection enables a group of highly infectious pathogens at once to break through the immune defence (skin, mucosa, lymph nodes)

But I shut up now – I shouldn’t have posted in the first place (should know better by now than to offer contrary information and food for thought on this topic)

[Robert MoonShadow]

Sanhestar: Personally, I hope you don’t shut up. It’s just a discussion… it’s supposed to have differing opinions & viewpoints – otherwise it’s just a monotone. A symphony of knowledge, just as in a symphony of music, needs to have different notes & harmonies. I tend to agree with you on this particular point you’re making – but that’s irrelevant. What is relevant, is that it is fairly obvious that on this site, diversity is not just tolerated, but welcomed. I’m speaking only for myself, of course, but if I wanted to have just one point of view or opinion, I’d buy one book & consider it a “bible” on draft animals.
As I said, this is my opinion, for what it’s worth.

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