Healthcare

[goodcompanion]

We here in the U.S. are so much in thrall of corporations, health care being a case in point, that there is probably very little hope for us. Seems to matter little whether the current attempt to reform health care succeeds, partly succeeds, or fails utterly. Either way we are bankrupt in a few short years.

[danb]

The problem with the health care plan as it is being proposed is it does nothing to bring down health care costs. We do not have a health care problem in this country; we have the best health care in the world. What we have is a health cost problem. And mandating that everyone must have health care insurance without dealing with cost will only make yet another super expensive, over regulated government program that we can’t afford. If health costs were brought down to a reasonable level, more people would be able to afford insurance without big brother’s help. You cannot find one instance in the history of the US when the government interfered with what was once done privately and made it run better. Don’t expect better here.

[mitchmaine]

at the risk of preachin’ to the choir here i have to add that over the years i’ve seen alot of hopes and dreams shattered because of health insurance. young farmers moving up, living in a tent, growing food, in love with their lives. then the house and the kids and something to lose. then they got ya. few can buy health insurance with tomatos so they go back and get a real job. by the time anyone gets to a position of power in government, you’ve sold your soul to the highest bidder and they own you. sad but true

[Stable-Man]

@mitchmaine 14949 wrote:

at the risk of preachin’ to the choir here i have to add that over the years i’ve seen alot of hopes and dreams shattered because of health insurance. young farmers moving up, living in a tent, growing food, in love with their lives. then the house and the kids and something to lose. then they got ya. few can buy health insurance with tomatos so they go back and get a real job. by the time anyone gets to a position of power in government, you’ve sold your soul to the highest bidder and they own you. sad but true

This whole debate hits home with me. In a couple years I’ll be kicked off my parents’ plan and probably won’t have a govt. job, meaning a private company is more likely to refuse me because of this pre-existing glaucoma(!) I have. I forgot who, and can’t get to it easily, but the poster who mentioned costs is right. The cost of care is just rediculous. Just about everything without insurance coverage must be well over a hundred bucks. Medicine is expensive with all the advertising. Advertising for medicine, to me, seems like a dumb idea anyway; I tell a doctor about a problem; they prescribe the medicine. You don’t go in and say, “I saw a commercial for Zoloft and think I need it.” Anyway, I quoted mitch because my career future is uncertain, and if I do like farming and persue it private insurance could take a chunk of my money if I can even get it.

As far as most people being lazy on welfare that’s a really broad generalization. It doesn’t pay great. People living in government housing or on welfare are far from coasting. I bet many of them work multiple jobs just to buy food or pay the rent. I’ve met people who are totally insensitive to the fact that we have a lot of people with generations of destitution behind them, and it’s not easy to just overcome and make a good life for yourself.

But back to the topic. One argument going around is that government is inefficient at running anything. Really? There are a ton of government jobs around here(D.C. duh), and while the private sector jobs went totally dead the government kept on going. It has provided my dad a job for 30 years and provided for several other members of my family. I highly doubt it’s any more corrupt than a private business. The point is part of healthcare could effectively be run by government.

[OldKat]

Wow Ixy, you have sure opened a can of worms here. One which I don’t intend to wade too far into … that said, let me give you a little insight into some of the opposition to this concept of universal care (which many, if not most would consider to be a good thing). There are so many dynamics to this issue that there is no way I will touch on them all, but here is just a sampling of the issues in play.

First off, it is a de facto currently available service. By US federal law, no health care provider can legally turn away persons seeking health care. Hospitals in California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas, as well as in many other states are struggling to keep their heads above water as waves of illegal immigrants show up in the emergency rooms for anything from the common cold to injuries to term pregnancies. Not only illegal aliens, but legal ones and citizens as well. Who do you think foots the bill for this “free” health care? If you guessed anything other than the tax payer you would be wrong. The fact that “universal” coverage would NOT be denied to illegal aliens in many versions of the health care bills being bandied about was a MAJOR turnoff to a lot of folks who would have likely other wise supported it. Second issue is abortion. Whether you support or are against abortion is not the point; fact is many people are violently opposed to the idea that their tax dollars would be confiscated to pay for a process that they are personally opposed to. Then there was the issue of the hammer being brought down on people; “YOU WILL SIGN UP FOR THIS OR ELSE …” (the or else being to pay a fine). While that sort of thing may go over in Great Britain, or in other parts of Europe, we fought and won a war of independence from your country over far less. Not to mention that this provision would be strictly unconstitutional and therefore unenforceable.

There are other factors too, such as the fact that there is NO mention of tort reform in the pending bill worries many people. There being widespread recognition of the fact that medical lawsuits (many frivolous) contribute greatly to surging costs of health care over here. The fact that people that have health care would be taxed up to 40% of the value of that policy in order to pay for the people who currently don’t have coverage, UNLESS they happen to belong to a union that supported President Obama’s campaign (in which case they get a 10 year waiver), etc, etc, etc.

But where they process REALLY jumped the track is that when this first came up our administration promised “open dialogue”, bi-partisan participation (i.e. both major parties inputting ideas) and on AT LEAST 8 different occasions then presidential candidate Obama stated the “entire process would be covered by C-Span” (which, if you don’t know is cable television station that covers the political process from a fairly non-partisan perspective). Well guess what? There was little or no open dialogue, but rather a bunch of secret meetings that were only attended by the political party in power. The other political party was completely frozen out of the process, so we will never know IF they had anything constructive to add or not. Finally the C-Span thing did NOT happen. In short, “The Change You Can Believe In” campaign slogan that excited many people was not honored.

In many ways this was not President Obama’s fault, as this process was being managed (as it should be) by the legislative branch of our government. Problem being that both houses of that branch are over-whelming controlled by the same political party that he represents. So the fact that it felt like this was being run down peoples throats not only rubbed the other political party the wrong way (which was to be expected in a way), but it also alienated most independents such as my self. You may not understand this but neither political party in our country can get elected without us “independents”; with about 36 to 37% of voters self identifying as Democrats (currently in power) and about 30 to 32% self identifying as Republicans neither party can act arrogantly without paying for in the polling place. The Republicans learned this the hard way in 2006 and 2008. I have a feeling the Democrats are going to learn the same in 2010.

Ixy, last summer many independent, open minded people attended town hall meetings across the breath and width of our country to hear our elected officials explain what they were trying to do with the health care bill. In many cases these were people that had no issue with universal health care being provided, they just wanted to know WHAT EXACTLY are we getting here? A reasonable question I believe. You know what we largely got? A message to “Sit down and shut up; WE are IN CONTROL HERE”. That played out over and over again and it infuriated many people, including MANY that voted for President Obama. To top it all off, when several of these people began to organize in resistance to what they saw as a strong-armed tactic to cram this stinker down their throats they were labeled in the main stream media and by many of the leaders of the Democratic party as “kooks”, “extremists” & “weirdo’s”. You know me from this board. Do I strike you as a kook, extremist or weirdo? I hope not.

So bottom line here, much of the resistance to what is being proposed is to the WAY it has been handled. Sure there are those that are flat out opposed to the idea of universal coverage, but they could be brought around in a REASONABLE manner. Trying to hammer them over the head isn’t working all that well. Neither is attacking their intelligence or their character. Not sure what your media is reporting, but from what little I know of your media it is just about as biased and of dubious nature as ours is, so keep doing what you are doing … asking and listening.

[OldKat]

@near horse 14939 wrote:

My opinion is that the tail is wagging the dog here. Corporate greed and profit are determining government policy. “If you don’t do such and such, we’ll break you.” Elected officials have to worry about getting re-elected and a well-funded disinformation campaign can wipe-out even the most forthright individual – not so with CEO’s. Many of them and their boards of directors aren’t even responsive to their own shareholders!

So what are you supposed to do as an elected official when you’re essentially held hostage by AIG, GM or whomever? Let them fail and we end up with even more catastrophic unemployment of average middle class Americans that did nothing to deserve it. Bail them out and reward them for corruption and bad management. Either way, as an elected official, you’re going to look bad.

I truly believe that corporations – those “too big to fail” – are dictating what we’re getting from our government.

So in the end Mark, you are right – few benefit and many pay. But I would rather try to push that benefit toward those with nothing rather than to those who already have everything.

The frustration comes from knowing we’re being screwed over by corporate greed and not being able to do a damn thing about it. One example – GoldmanSachs handed out bonuses equal to the total amount of money donated by the American public to provide aid to Haiti – 100 million dollars. That’s just contemptable!

No one is worth 1 million dollars per year, let alone have that added to your salary! A million dollars is $114/hr for every hour you exist during that year – asleep, in the shower, on the toilet ….

Converted to payment for a “normal” work schedule – $480/hr For that rate, at least do a better job fooling me!!

See this is where I disagree with you my good and loyal friend. May I? Thank you (in advance).

You see, I don’t think any organization is too big or too important to fail. I would have let them go down the drain IN A HEARTBEAT. You know why I believe that was not allowed to happen? I think it was because actions of our government had dictated that these banks “make it happen” with loans that had NO BUSINESS BEING MADE, to people that DID NOT QUALIFY. When it all blew up there were those in both political parties that had finger prints all over this crappy deal and they didn’t want this sordid fact brought to the light of day. In short it was easier and more expedient to sell you and me down the river than to own up to the fact that officials of our government, some elected, some appointed not only allowed this crisies to happen, they actively orchestrated it. They didn’t want anybody at any of these banks pointing this dirty little secret out, thus the big pay off.

BTW: The only person that I remember saying “this crap is CRAZY” while it was going on was Senator McCain. I am not a McCain supporter, never cared for him. However, to his credit he did predict that the “liars loans” were going to bite us in the, well, should we say “assets” long before anyone else seemed to understand what was going on.

[blue80]

I sadly don’t have solutions, mainly just thoughts and perusals on this matter.

Growing up in Canada, I have experienced “free” health care and some of its perks and problems.
For some reason, I knowingly, happily settled in and am raising a family in the US. We are self employed, and 5 yrs ago my wife quit her professional job-with benefits- to take care of our family/children, something she excells at and is a priority for us, and has been a tremendous blessing. Since then, we have had no “health care plan” although we have a high deductible HSA, thanks dubya Bush for enlarging this option!

Health care is so much more than a medical issue, it is rather a social economic issue. It is fundamentally a subject dealing with how a person or family applies their hopes, goals and dreams in a practical manner in their community. The “practical manner” I write about is often times manifested through work, a huge neccessary part of all our lives. King Solomon stated that their is nothing better than for a man to enjoy his work. I would add, and maybe Solomon meant between the lines, that it is also great to be around people who enjoy their work!
Far too often when asking my peers questions about where they would like to be in 2, 5, 10 years they state their dreams, and then backpeddle with excuses why it isn’t feasible to follow those dreams immediately;
“I’d quit my job, but, the benefits”
“My wife would love to stay home with our children, but my work has no benefits and hers does”
“Only 6 more years and I am fully vested in my pension, THEN, I’m gonna….”
etc. etc.

I don’t think it’s right, fair or moral to make decisions for others. Rather, it is most important to lead by example and be available to take away peoples excuses of why they don’t do their best. Then it is up to them whether they are full of crap or really willing to make the rubber hit the road.
What I am trying to say is that in Canada, I never heard people use the excuse of why they stayed at a job they hated because of “the benefits” (Canadians just flat out said that they would rather play hockey, drink lite beer, and go snowmobiling than work);) Fear of losing benefits has turned us into an excuse laden nation perfectly willing to turn off our goals and heart dreams so that a strange doctor can medicate us if/when something bad happens. Broken dreams makes for broken community. So what the heck, tax me like they did in Canada, give everyone “free health care” so I can go back to those people and hopefully see the vibrant changes in their lives.

It is ludicrous to expect employers to “provide health insurance or pay a penalty”
I can’t make my employees get 8 hrs sleep, drink milk instead of a 12 pack before bed, or dictate they drink pure water. But doing my best to provide them a great wage for a moral company doing work worth doing entitles me to not only pay vacation days, social security and futa, now I am forced to provide them with health care. Cmon, not the best way to promote vibrant fresh business, is it?

This great nation is all about options, I think. Build a house with cardboard or ICF’s. Buy cheap pesticide laden or organic. Clear cut or silviculture.
And health care should also qualify; It’s horrible that they are trying to do away with Health Savings Account’s, one of the only options where the citizen can take health care into their own hands. But I remember now, the citizen isn’t actually qualified to make decisions for themselves…:rolleyes::mad:
What saddens me the most is the total lack of preventive health in any of the new plans. Clean air, clean water, good food, good rest allows us a better chance to have better quality of life, and health care should always start with proactive, not reactive methods.

Two years ago my wife delivered a baby in the hospital, not in for 24 hrs. No epidural, no complications, and I was really polite to everyone. Still $8000.00 cash price.
Last year my wife delivered a baby via midwife, a tremendous experience I would encourage everyone to look into, and a third the cost; Our money went to wonderful local families who we have gained friendships with. We had to drive up to Montana during labor, because midwifery in Wyoming is shunned….ps I am a big man for delivering my own child; and by the way, it turns out women have been having children for a long time without doctors….
Two weeks ago, I was wrestling with the kids after dinner, my 4 yr old dislocated her arm. $1400.00 cash price for them to pop it back in. And That put my nose out of joint:(

We are writing letters to our elected officials, doing lots of praying on the subject that we won’t become angry and bitter, and encouraging those around to explore all their options, not just the obvious easy options that are government mandated and take away short term fears.
Don’t know what else to do, can’t get water from a stone….

Kevin

[OldKat]

@danb 14947 wrote:

The problem with the health care plan as it is being proposed is it does nothing to bring down health care costs. We do not have a health care problem in this country; we have the best health care in the world. What we have is a health cost problem. And mandating that everyone must have health care insurance without dealing with cost will only make yet another super expensive, over regulated government program that we can’t afford. If health costs were brought down to a reasonable level, more people would be able to afford insurance without big brother’s help. You cannot find one instance in the history of the US when the government interfered with what was once done privately and made it run better. Don’t expect better here.

At the risk of sounding “anti-government” (I am not) let me say that you have nailed it. If you have ever seen those charts that show medical inflation versus general inflation it is real interesting to see that they tracked each other turn for turn up until the the mid 1960’s, then medical inflation takes off. What happened? Why did medical costs suddenly uncouple from the overall rate of inflation? Simple: The US government got involved in the process with a little program called “Medicare”.

The more involved in the process that they have been since then, the more out of hand costs have gotten. Don’t take my word for it, look it up yourself.

[OldKat]

From Kevin’s excellent post, above;

Health care is so much more than a medical issue, it is rather a social economic issue. It is fundamentally a subject dealing with how a person or family applies their hopes, goals and dreams in a practical manner in their community. The “practical manner” I write about is often times manifested through work, a huge neccessary part of all our lives. King Solomon stated that their is nothing better than for a man to enjoy his work. I would add, and maybe Solomon meant between the lines, that it is also great to be around people who enjoy their work!
Far too often when asking my peers questions about where they would like to be in 2, 5, 10 years they state their dreams, and then backpeddle with excuses why it isn’t feasible to follow those dreams immediately;
“I’d quit my job, but, the benefits”
“My wife would love to stay home with our children, but my work has no benefits and hers does”
“Only 6 more years and I am fully vested in my pension, THEN, I’m gonna….”
etc. etc.

I guess each person’s case is different, but I have heard those exact same sentiments expressed by countless others. Some may be using it as a cop out, for others it is no doubt a major factor in not wanting to rock the boat. Quite honestly, I couldn’t afford to pay health insurance premiums as an individual. As a matter of fact, that is EXACTLY why I quit teaching high school agriculture some 29 years ago and went to work in private industry … for the “benefits”, that being a pension plan and health insurance (plus twice the money). I have been real fortunate to work for some good companies, and have worked with some really fine people over those 29 years. That said, I am not so sure that I wouldn’t have enjoyed teaching ag a whole lot more. So yes, it is something that I would like to see resolved so that aspect is not a stumbling block to those that would like to do something other than what they are doing for a living.

In fact there is a guy that I work with that retired at age 57 some 8 years ago. Guess what? About 10 or 12 months ago he showed back up on the payroll. His stated reason for returning to work? “I couldn’t afford to be without health insurance, and I couldn’t afford to buy it on my own”. That would be my worse nightmare. Not that I hate working here, it is just that when I leave I don’t want to be drawn back by the golden handcuffs of “benefits” be they insurance, pension plan or whatever.

I am not against health insurance reform; Lord knows it is sorely needed. I am against what is being currently proposed. Hopefully the message that was sent by the voters of Massachusetts will wake up everyone in congress and now they can get about addressing this thing in an objective, bi-partisan manner as they should have done a year ago.

[LostFarmer]

Well put Kevin.

I am a small business owner. Happen to be in engineering and love it nearly as much as I like farming. It is a toss up. We offer the employee a high deductible plan and then contribute to his HSA. We love HSA as it allows us to make our own decisions on health care not follow insurance. In the mid 60’s the then owner of the company put a retirement plan in place and was contributing 5% of the employees gross to his retirement. The employee can then make a contribution from 0% to 13%. At the time the money for retirement was greater than the insurance bill. Now that 5% is less than the insurance bill by about 1/2. It costs us nearly 10% of what we pay an employee to pay his insurance this is for a high deductible plan.

Government is best when it provides only the things that private industry can’t. LF

[goodcompanion]

@danb 14947 wrote:

You cannot find one instance in the history of the US when the government interfered with what was once done privately and made it run better. Don’t expect better here.

I am no big pal of the Empire, but this is statement is really absurd.

Here’s a list of things that were previously done privately but vastly improved by federal involvement.

1. Suppression of banditry on land and piracy at sea
2. Coordinated improvement of sanitation and eradication of epidemic diseases
3. Provision of drinking and irrigation waters on a more-or-less equitable basis
4. Preservation of wilderness
5. A professional, standing army in lieu of a disjointed approach made up of local militias.
6. Provision for huge masses of, say for instance, workers injured in industrial accidents who would otherwise have been cast aside like garbage by the companies responsible for their injuries
7. A standard nationwide code of law and system of justice, in lieu of kangaroo courts and vigilantism. Civil rights common to all.

I’m sure the list could be expanded. Now, for every one of these points you can point out flaws in the federal approach, but I for one would never want to have to live without the improvements that Uncle Sam has made.

However I do believe that the federal era is on the way out and that probably fragmentation of some sort is in our American future. We’ll lose the good with the bad, and end up with different good, and different bad. That’s kind of irrelevant.

But it’s silly to say that the good doesn’t exist and never did. Like the Judaic Peoples’ Resistance Front in the Life of Brian. “The Romans did NOTHING for our people!” (Except…the aqueducts, the roads, common system of weights and measures…)

[Author]

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