Hi everyone

[carter]

Just saying Hi. I’ve been visiting for a while, and really enjoyed it. Learned a lot. In the end, the temptation to view the pictures was too great . I use horses, but if I had the time and money, I would try oxen and mules too.

[CharlyBonifaz]

welcome 🙂

I would try oxen and mules too.

can recommend oxen 😀 just too much fun

[carter]

Thanks for your welcome. I am interested which oxen breeds do you have in Germany? Would any breed do for training? I have heard that dairy breeds are not as placid as beef cattle.

[CharlyBonifaz]

let me start with your second question:

Would any breed do for training?

in principle “yes”, sort of depending on what you want to use them for

which oxen breeds do you have in Germany

for example:
Fleckvieh
Pinzgauer
rotes Höhenvieh
Braunvieh
Schwarzbunte
rätisches Grauvieh
google for pictures of these breeds, quite a number of them belong to local livestock breeds at risk of dying out; they are specifically being used, hoping that these old breeds have conserved their traits for workability better

[carter]

Thank you. I’ll bet those traditional breeds are better, folk wouldn’t have gone on using them that long if they weren’t suitable. It is great that people are keeping them going. I’ll seek out the info later to find some pictures of them. I notice most names end in ‘vieh’ , so I’ll try to see what that means. I shall have to watch out, I can feel myself being tempted down the oxen road….

[near horse]

Now, oddly enough, the Angus breed has bounced back, and they are a tight, compact short British Breed. Around here they are all the rage right now. Angus are hot, and Black is hotter than Red. Go figure.

Hey Bachelorfarmer,

I thought the issue with the large framed exotics or continental breeds was that packers complained that: the cuts were too big to fit in their boxes and too big to sell as retail cuts (not everyone wants a giant ribeye – although I’d like one). Also, longer time to finish on continentals. Blacks over Reds – not so sure but out here Black Baldies are the cross of choice (Angus Hereford) because they seem to perform better on the hot finishing rations (less acidosis).

Many folks go with dairy breeds since they have been partially bred (theoretically) for temperment. If you need to milk them 2x a day you don’t need aggressive genetics.

[OldKat]

@near horse 7952 wrote:

Hey Bachelorfarmer,

I thought the issue with the large framed exotics or continental breeds was that packers complained that: the cuts were too big to fit in their boxes and too big to sell as retail cuts (not everyone wants a giant ribeye – although I’d like one). Also, longer time to finish on continentals. Blacks over Reds – not so sure but out here Black Baldies are the cross of choice (Angus Hereford) because they seem to perform better on the hot finishing rations (less acidosis).

Many folks go with dairy breeds since they have been partially bred (theoretically) for temperment. If you need to milk them 2x a day you don’t need aggressive genetics.

I think the time to finish is probably the real driver. When feedlots first started getting to be the most common way to finish cattle (late 1940’s or so) the time in the lot was probably 90 days. The finished steer probably weighed “maybe” a 1,000 pounds, more likely 900 to 950 #’s. Today it is probably averages in excess of 140 to 150 days and may go much higher than that for some of the larger framed steers, with finished steers weighing upwards of 1,500 #’s. If the amount the animal consumes to finish is a % of its live body weight, then bigger framed cattle will require more grain to finish than smaller framed ones will. At a couple of bucks or less a bushel for corn or equivalent (milo, etc) that may not have been a big deal. At todays grain prices it is a very big deal.

Think about what a feedlot really is; just a giant feedstore, feeding one million pounds of grain per day or more. Since most feedlots don’t own the cattle, but just feed them out for someone else they (generally) could care less about grain prices. (Some do because of the way their contracts work, but most don’t) The “feeders”, the people that actually own the cattle, care a great deal about the price because they get squeezed out on the margin (sometimes, often times a negative margin) between “live cattle” and “fats” (finished cattle). So, while there is a great deal of talk about cattle not “fitting the box” (which is really more of a retailer issue than a packer issue), the same complaint was voiced when grain prices were cheap … just nobody listened. The feedlot boys were selling a lot of grain and the auction buyers work for them … so guess what kind of frame they were out looking for? Yep; 6’s, 7’s and up.

Now grain prices are through the roof and the only way a feeder has a prayer of a chance of turning a profit is on cattle that will “trip” the lot quickly. Hence the sudden desire to get faster finishing cattle. Unfortunately, the old easy keeping frame 3, 4 and maybe 5 cattle have been out of favor so long that there are just not many of them around.

So the buyers are tending towards chasing the breeds that are “generally” smaller framed. There are millions of Black Angus cattle out there, but not that many Red Angus (the Red Angus as a distinct breed is only about 50 years old). There are reasons the Blacks are more common than the Reds, but in the long run I am betting on the Red.

I’m not in the packing business, but my father, two uncles and one cousin were or are so I tend to watch issues like this one fairly closely.

[near horse]

the same complaint was voiced when grain prices were cheap … just nobody listened. The feedlot boys were selling a lot of grain and the auction buyers work for them … so guess what kind of frame they were out looking for? Yep; 6’s, 7’s and up

Hi Oldkat,

I’ve got a couple of comments to run by you on this.

We’ve been seeing the strong Angus market for almost 20 years now. Through $2.50 corn and $10 corn. There were the occasional attempts to market a specific breed as the new “thing” (like the Limousin{sp} in the 90’s) but nothing over that time ever really displaced the blacks. And we saw it on a much smaller scale when finishing cattle – the Salers, Limos, Gelbs, Simmentals – all would reach a certain level of intake and then crash but not very often would a black baldie do that. They just chugged it down.

Since most feedlots don’t own the cattle, but just feed them out for someone else they (generally) could care less about grain prices. (Some do because of the way their contracts work, but most don’t) The “feeders”, the people that actually own the cattle, care a great deal about the price

I’m confused on this one. So the stocker is retaining ownership of his cattle through to slaughter? Or are there buyers who buy live cattle and send them to a custom feedlot? I thought that those big feeders bought cattle,owned and finished them and that most of the custom stuff was small potatoes. Whether grain is cheap or expensive, when you multiply 5 extra days on feed times 50,000 head, that’s some serious money and also why some pen riders I know say the rule of thumb is 5% acidosis in the lot or you’re not pushing them hard enough. Not my cup of tea but you sure see where numbers become the issue.

[sanhestar]

@carter 7925 wrote:

I notice most names end in ‘vieh’ , so I’ll try to see what that means. I shall have to watch out, I can feel myself being tempted down the oxen road….

Hello and welcome,

“Vieh” means livestock but it’s also used to describe cattle in particular.

So f.e.

Fleckvieh = piebald, pinto cattle
Braunvieh = brown cattle

all in regard to local breeds

[OldKat]

Geoff,

The sytem wouldn’t let me reply to your post, so I am doing it this way instead. Hope it make sense! 🙂

I’ve got a couple of comments to run by you on this.

We’ve been seeing the strong Angus market for almost 20 years now. Through $2.50 corn and $10 corn. There were the occasional attempts to market a specific breed as the new “thing” (like the Limousin{sp} in the 90’s) but nothing over that time ever really displaced the blacks. And we saw it on a much smaller scale when finishing cattle – the Salers, Limos, Gelbs, Simmentals – all would reach a certain level of intake and then crash but not very often would a black baldie do that. They just chugged it down.

I agree. IMO, the only “exotic” or more accurately continental breed to have made serious inroads into the US commercial business has been the Charolais, and even they had a period in the late 1970’s, early 80’s when they were out of favor. The heavily muscled, “Full French” Charolais that were brought into the US in the 60’s and early 70’s had double muscle problems, dystocia problems and did not do especially well in the feedlot. The so called “domestic” Charolais, descending from individuals imported in the 20’s & 30’s did not have these problems and that is what was used to rebuild the breed here.

Angus (Black and Red) have been and will continue to be popular as a cross because they are one of the so called carcass quality breeds. Others include Hereford, Shorthorn, Devon, the unrelated South Devon and maybe a few others that I can’t recall. In reality, it is only the Angus (especially the Angus), Herefords and Shorthorns that are generally thought of in those terms. Keep an eye on the Devon’s, I think they could be an up and comer (especially for those that want to short finish on grain or grass finish!).

NOTE: For you Ox Drovers, if you have any Milking Shorthorn or Devon cows that you are using to produce your oxen … for a deep freeze calf you might consider AI’ing your cows to some of those Rotokawa Devon’s that come out of New Zeeland. I am pretty sure semen is available on them now and the carcass quality / ability to finish on grass of those calves is said to be amazing.

What gets used in the lot is generally a regional preference and it almost always comes down to environmental adaptability. Up where you are the Black Baldie probably is the most adaptable cross available. On the South Plains (Lubbock, TX & north to lower Kansas & S E Colorado) the Super Baldie is popular, especially for placement in late spring to feed through the summer. This is a Black Baldie with a touch of “ear”, maybe 1/8 to 3/8 Brahma(n). However, the steer of choice for year round use has been what they call a “Black nosed Charolais”, which is really a Charolais x Angus. There has been increased interest in breeding both of these breeds smaller over the past several years & in increasing the percentage of Angus in the cross, because of the grain cost, days on feed & fitting the box issues we discussed earlier.

[OldKat]

I’m confused on this one. So the stocker is retaining ownership of his cattle through to slaughter? Or are there buyers who buy live cattle and send them to a custom feedlot? I thought that those big feeders bought cattle,owned and finished them and that most of the custom stuff was small potatoes. Whether grain is cheap or expensive, when you multiply 5 extra days on feed times 50,000 head, that’s some serious money and also why some pen riders I know say the rule of thumb is 5% acidosis in the lot or you’re not pushing them hard enough. Not my cup of tea but you sure see where numbers become the issue.

Geoff,

I don’t know what happens in points up North (or “Up Narth” as you are likely to hear it said around here! :rolleyes:), but in the lots I am familiar with the most common form of ownership is a third party type of deal. The lots have their buyers buy cattle for “feeders” who may or may not have any other dealings with cattle. There are “retained ownership” deals where a stocker/ grazer buys calves at 600 #’s, maybe heavier and then will graze them to maybe 850 #’s or so, before placement, while retaining ownership. The state dept of agriculture sponsors a program called “Ranch to Rail” where ranchers own the cattle all the way through the chain, right up to the packing plant. There are some lots that own the cattle or at least have some ownership in some or all of the cattle. I guess you could say there are all sorts of ownership arrangements in play. *

The 5% rule must be universal, because that is what they say here as well. Interestingly enough the acidosis issue is sort of what has turned me off to feeding cattle. The more I look into it, the less I like the concept.

* This was as of 2000, which was the last time I really looked into feeding cattle. Things may have changed completely since then, I can’t say for sure.

[OldKat]

@BachelorFarmer 7937 wrote:

re:the so-called “traditional” breeds… It must be noted that this is completely relative to your locality. Those breeds charly lists are almost unheard of where I farm in Canada. The traditional breeds here are British. “exotic” animals began entering from france, and then much later from elsewhere.

I work as an AI technician http://www.ebi.ca and have studied the trends in beef cattle breeding and the rise and fall of certain traits/breeds over the last century. Frankly it fluctuates much like women’s fashion. Around 1900 the demand was for big framey cattle, and the British breeds were bred larger until the mid-century point when a smaller compact carcass was in demand. They then focused on this. Later the demand for huge framed cattle almost overnight brought on the widespread importation of French (Charolais, Blonde d’Aquitaine, Maine Anjou) cattle. Now, oddly enough, the Angus breed has bounced back, and they are a tight, compact short British Breed. Around here they are all the rage right now. Angus are hot, and Black is hotter than Red. Go figure.

The beef enterprise really determines which breeds will or will not survive. The ox driving enterprise is .01% of .01% of this total. I say grow your own or buy local…and make do with what is at hand 🙂 This chasing after shangri la is simply homogenising the planet through cross breeding. Most Gelbvieh bull semen is used to cross on other breeds here. I don’t even carry any of those others mentioned. The few purebred Gelbvieh breeders are few and far between.

My personal experience with beef breeds indicates that Herefords are the most docile and tractable and friendly.

I don’t disagree with anything BachelorFarmer has to say; his observations mirror mine.

In addition, if I remember correctly the British breeds early on were dual purpose … milk production / beef & sometimes triple purpose … milk / beef / motive power (to pull things). The continental breeds were developed with a higher emphasis on motive power and then either milk or beef, usually for milk. Probably NOT true for ALL breeds, but “in general” so.

I think I remember reading that the Europeans stayed with oxen as a major source of power longer than we did on this side of the pond. So IF I were to make a special effort to locate animals for that purpose beyond what was locally available to me (which is what I would actually be inclined to use) I would lean toward something like Braunvieh, Blonde d’Aquitaine, Maine Anjou etc. However, the longer those breeds have been in the US the more likely that they have probably changed in form from their original conformation. Also, many have been crossed with polled individuals which I think I remember hearing is not desirable for making oxen.

Then again, I am a horse guy (and not all that great at that) so what do I know about oxen? 😀

[CharlyBonifaz]

http://www.fleckvieh.de/Englisch/E_0_0.htm
http://www.embryoplus.com/cattle_pinzgauer.html
http://www.rotes-hoehenvieh.de/ (don’t mind the text, just scroll down for the pictures)
http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/braunvieh/index.htm
https://www.uni-hohenheim.de/staatsschule/7/06th/tierhaltung/Schwarzbunte.htm
http://www.embryoplus.com/cattle_ratien_gray.html

😉 just for fun

[Author]

Posts