Holding them back

[WVDrafty]

When I purchased these horses they had been running on 100 acres with other horses their entire lives. They came off the hill when called and could be caught. They stepped up in a small barn and stood tied. The 5 year old was said to have worked with her mother on disc and mower a little. She led well from the beginning. The 4 year old did not. They had never had their feet picked up and only the fronts had been chisled down. They broke two halters within a week and jumped 5 foot round bales when excited. They would bolt from the barn when anything scared them. They did not trust nor wanted touched. That is where we began. I built stocks that I used to train to lift and hold feet that are trimmed regularly and or shod. They lead well and follow not pull. They stand untied for harness with no problems there. They will stand while I hitch to tounge calmly. I do this in a drive through barn with gates on each end. I can open the gate go back and get on the sled and stand for 10 minutes before I ask them to go. They will walk off for 30 yards and begin to want to go. I also hitch in the round pen the same way and the same occurs. I have the metal corral panels I can open and drive out and in. I get the best results for me and them when I hook single to a rubber stall mat with straw bale to ride. They first wanted to trot for about 500 yards but then walked on slack lines. They will now start out walking that way. I have them in a 20 acre open rolling field where they stay. That was the reason for my asking about working single for a while, How much will transfer to the team dynamic. I am not goal oriented I learned that quick, but I would prefer to work on line handling and relaxation while dragging the field or discing the corn patch and garden. I think the pattern in a more contolled setting works better than in open field going in circles for us. They have each done well, single, with the disc stopping, starting, and waiting for me to adjust at each end of our 100×100 vegtable garden in the yard. I will not yet hook them together on a disc. I work with them on average 2 hrs 5 days a week. I am doing this because I love it and can’t get enough of it. I have all the farm machinery I need to get my work done with tractors, but that still will not explain why I collect eggs, milk a cow, and raise my own pork and beef. thanks

[Carl Russell]

Just a quick response to Donn’s points about “no pressure” driving. In my mind contact is pressure. If you are holding the lines up off the ground the horse will feel the pressure, although very light. It is important to have some pressure so that it can be released, or increased, as part of the communication.

The fuzzy area is how much pressure? It is clear that many of us know that we want to work with pressure so light that it may only be considered “contact”. The point is though that through some technique teamster and horse have to come to an agreement as to how that is defined. The agreement is that you don’t want to have to be “holding them back”.

This is an art, and we all have our own ways, but time is really a huge factor. On your first team it may take a lot longer than it will take in ten years after several other horses. On my farm the only way that works, is what ever it takes.

The other thing I picked up in your observations is that you are thinking about the team as if they are a unit. I think it is important to be able to think about the team as two independent animals that you drive at the same time. They seem to be comfortable working single, but in the team they work against each other, and you. That is where working them single will really help.

Carl

Carl

[Plowboy]

This ordeal was just the frosting on the cake. I found out that two local guys that had asked for advice last fall hadn’t done a damn thing with their horses since the weather got cold. The one had a Haflinger that got away from them. Turned out she was just herdbound and wanted to get back with the other horses. I told them to drive her several times a week on a light load and when the weather got better more often. She was well broke when they got her I know where she came from and have seen her work. They ground drove her twice this winter! big deal. Since the weather got better I asked if they had been working her ,”No but we’ve been thinking alot about it”. Whatever!!
The other guy bought a broke broke pair of crosses at the same sale. He drove them once before Christmas and not again until last weekend. They wanted to trot and he seems to feel now that they are too much for him. I could go get them and sharpen them up and slow them down but I know they will just get turned out again to go stale.
Makes a guy disgusted just thinking about it. I have enough irons in the fire I don’t need to go around helping others but I always do. Those two guys might be on there own now though.
Sometimes here I feel as though I could type until my fingers were sore not because I like typing but because I’m trying to explain and help someone. It seems more times than not my response is dismissed so it makes you wonder why you bothered. I’m not giving up completely I just might sit back and watch for a while before I add to any discussions.

[Carl Russell]

Dennis, please understand that it is very difficult from both ends to explain, or understand the subtle aspects of this art. It can be frustrating when you think you have been dismissed, or misunderstood. All-in-all your posts are among some of the most well-grounded on this site.

Nothing wrong with a breather now and then.

Thanks for all you contribute, Carl

[WVDrafty]

Today I harnessed up the horses and worked with them all day. I made a Doc hammill fake set of shafts and hooked each to that and went a round or two. Went fine so I put shafts on the forecart and hooked each for the first time to shafted vehicle. Each horse walked from the beginning and stayed relaxed. It was enjoyable. I will hook drag on behind tomorrow and get them two birds while working on turns and light line pressure. Carl, Will this transfer to being hooked as a team. Plowboy why don’t you wait and set out when I quit asking questions. Thanks

[Robert MoonShadow]

Yes, Plowboy… thank you. As a newbie, I enjoy your comments & contributions. Some of it I take, some I expect I’ll take as the need arises, and some, perhaps not. But it’s valuable – not just in the quality of the information, but in the giving. Whether I or anyone else fully ‘take in’ what you say, it’s not as important as the fact that there’s another member of this online community (you) that is willing to offer insights & advice. You can’t accurately measure the gift of giving by whether or how it’s received… it’s a seperate action, of intrinsic value in and of itself.
That’s why I thank you.

[Carl Russell]

WVDrafty;7269 wrote:

…. Each horse walked from the beginning and stayed relaxed. It was enjoyable. I will hook drag on behind tomorrow and get them two birds while working on turns and light line pressure. Carl, Will this transfer to being hooked as a team. ….

What should transfer to the team is your confidence, and connection to each horse. It can take some time for you to substantiate that connection with each animal so that you can over-ride the dynamics between the two. Also after driving, and accomplishing tasks with single horses you will be more inclined to feel and drive each horse separately when hitched in the team.

I really like that word “enjoyable”, THAT is an important feeling to come to, and sometimes it just takes trying a wide array of methods to find it. If it’s enjoyable for you, it also is for the horses.

Carl

[Donn Hewes]

WV Drafty, I think they sound like they are doing great. Like Carl said, Keep looking for those things that are working, (enjoyable!). Keep challenging yourself to bring that out in your horses as you try each new thing. Keep them going. For me a looks like a great week to do some pasture harrowing. Donn

[Gabe Ayers]

@CIW 7217 wrote:

I don’t see this as something that just happened one day. Its a habit thats been developed. Without sounding mean. It isn’t something that will just go away over night
If I were in your situation I would start by slowing the way I was hitching. Harness and then leave them tied at the hitch rail while I went and did something else. Then come back later and hitch up to whatever piece of equipment and set there. Let them go to sleep. Then just pick up the line slack and ask them to walk off walk off. Not if but when they want to charge away. Stop them and let them go to sleep. Pick up your line slack and ask them to walk off. Repeat.
Harness them every day. Even when you don’t hitch them. Just let them stand and at the end of the day put them away.
I don’t see this as a mechinical problem. Its a confidence problem. And only building a new habit will correct it.
Yes, you can bit the animals heavier and band-aid the symptom but that doesn’t address the problem and often only serves to harden their mouths making the problem harder to deal with.
They need more confidence. That can only come from you, through your voice, your hands on the lines, then lots of time with their bodies collected working in a steady pace.
You may not get any work done, for a while, but you will change the habit of your horses.
Good luck

“Yes, you can bit the animals heavier and band-aid the symptom but that doesn’t address the problem and often only serves to harden their mouths making the problem harder to deal with.”

When it comes to bits I consider there being two types. Friction bits and leverage bits. There are gag bits too, but I haven’t seen those commonly used in driving horses.

I agree with the quoted statement regarding friction bits. If you go to a heavier friction bit it will cause the horses mouth to become calloused and will lead to an even harder mouthed horse. I think this is primarily because it is a single signal bit with the contact or pressure being the friction of the bit on the bar of the horses mouth. The other factor of using a friction bit is that if the horses are frightened enough to want to flee they can run away with these simple bits and there is not a man alive that can hold them.

However I don’t agree with this statement as it relates to leverage bits. This is because the lever bits offer multiple signals or pressure on the horses heads to give direction and control. The first is of course the bar or bit as a friction bit, which in our case is never allowed to become enough friction to cause callousing from that contact. The second signal is the action of the curb chain on the lever bit putting pressure on the lower jaw when the horse pushes forward through the bit. The third action is the pull down on the pole or top of the horse head in response to the leverage bit acting upon the bridle.

Most lever bits have adjustments that allow for varying degrees of pressure from the amount of leverage applied. When the lines are attached in the corner their is no leverage or minimum at most. When the lines are attached in the first slot down the lever there is moderate leverage, when the lines are attached on the bottom slot there is maximum leverage.

Many years ago when watching big hitches in Detroit I noticed that these horses were or seemed to be on the verge of running away most of the time. This is what they were looking for, but in reality they were in control from the usage of the lever bits. This experience came at about the same time many folks were having runaway horses from using the friction bits regardless of type of friction bit. When we switched to lever bits the runaways stopped. You can under most circumstance hold the horses from running away with a properly adjusted lever bit. We use the Military Show Elbow bit on the middle setting on most of our horses and some just in the corner setting when they are very responsive and soft mouthed.

It is like having an old truck with manual steering or a new truck with power steering. As I have become more aged myself the power steering is the choice that allows for sensitively driving the horses regarding pace of travel.
It can be done with nearly no line pressure and not be a situation of the horses becoming harder mouthed as with the friction style bit.

There are several styles of lever bits. Mylar makes a good driving bit. There is a Buxton Bit, a Liverpool bit and the military show elbow bit. It is not a band aid but simply an aid in giving the horses a clear simple set of signals that rewards them for coming off the bit and being responsive to the pressure regarding their rate of travel.

I have heard some old timers say you can’t drive a horse on a heavy load with the lever bits. I think that really means “they” can’t drive a horses on a
heavy load with a lever bit, because over the years we have drove our horses past many of these fellows at the pulling contest with our lever bits.
I don’t want to work horses that pull my arms off and travel at whatever pace they wish. I want them to be sensitive to the signals given and these bits allow that exchange with no damage to the horse when used sensitively.

There is another two cents worth West Va. Drafty, let me know if you want to try an elbow bit, we keep them in stock here in stainless steel or brass.

[jen judkins]

I used to think that a bigger bit was a poor substitute for good horsemanship, as I think CIW was inferring in his post. And in many instances, I still believe that to be true. A bit is simply a tool and its fair and effective use is dependant on the hands holding the reins.

That said, there are a few ‘patterns’ horses learn, that are unacceptable to me. One of those is running off, whether it is in a cart or undersaddle. If it takes a bigger bit to interupt that pattern, so be it. The longer a horse does the wrong thing the harder it will be to fix the problem.

A bigger bit may be necessary in some cases to interupt a pattern, and I believe used judiciously can help replace unwanted behavior with good patterns. You can always go back to a snaffle or a milder setting when things are going well. I think the problem lies in always depending on a bit for control, when simply using some psychology in your training will produce long lasting habits regardless of bitting.

I drive Peanut in a single link liverpool. Last fall I used it entirely on the snaffle ring (we were out driving 5 days a week). This spring, he is alittle fresh, so I set the reins down abit so I can get his attention when I need to. Its not that I plan to use more bit for control, but its important to me that I can interupt unwanted bahavior as soon as it first developes. The horse is not wrong to experiment with his behavior, but if they do not meet resistance when they do the wrong thing, you are heading into a pattern that could be trouble later on.

So I guess I agree with both CIW and Jason on this point.

[Does’ Leap]

I switched my horses over to a Liverpool bit and they are like a different team. My bit has three settings and I drive them on the second one down. I use very light pressure and they are very responsive. We purchased them as 5 year olds from a dealer, so I don’t know what they were trained on (I assume a curb-type bit given their lack of respect for the snaffle). After struggling for year with different snaffle bits, we switched bits. They now stop on a dime, not from the pressure of the bit but perhaps from the knowledge it is there. Not sure, but I am sure that they drive better with these bits.

George

[rdgfrm]

Here is one mans take on line pressure. Check this out. http://equineink.wordpress.com/2008/07/31/lorenzo-the-flying-french-man-a-modern-take-on-trick-riding/

[WVDrafty]

Jason, thanks for the info on the bit types. I have been able to progress to this point by using the experience of others that are kind enough to give their two cents worth and trial and error. Thanks for all the replies. If any of you have specific questions to help me read these mares I will respond. I have both patience and expectations and it doesn’t hurt to get alittle work done in the process. Thanks to all.

[OldKat]

@Plowboy 7259 wrote:

This ordeal was just the frosting on the cake. I found out that two local guys that had asked for advice last fall hadn’t done a damn thing with their horses since the weather got cold. The one had a Haflinger that got away from them. Turned out she was just herdbound and wanted to get back with the other horses. I told them to drive her several times a week on a light load and when the weather got better more often. She was well broke when they got her I know where she came from and have seen her work. They ground drove her twice this winter! big deal. Since the weather got better I asked if they had been working her ,”No but we’ve been thinking alot about it”. Whatever!!
The other guy bought a broke broke pair of crosses at the same sale. He drove them once before Christmas and not again until last weekend. They wanted to trot and he seems to feel now that they are too much for him. I could go get them and sharpen them up and slow them down but I know they will just get turned out again to go stale.
Makes a guy disgusted just thinking about it. I have enough irons in the fire I don’t need to go around helping others but I always do. Those two guys might be on there own now though.
Sometimes here I feel as though I could type until my fingers were sore not because I like typing but because I’m trying to explain and help someone. It seems more times than not my response is dismissed so it makes you wonder why you bothered. I’m not giving up completely I just might sit back and watch for a while before I add to any discussions.

Dennis,

I know EXACTLY how you feel about people asking advice and then not following it. We use to do some showing when the kids were young and we had great success; flat out dominating for several years at the county fair. The animals we bred won numerous shows from one end of our state to the other. Countless newbies would come ask our advice and virtually none of them ever followed up on it. At first it really bugged me. But know what? I was completely honest with them, even when they would be in competition with my kids because I knew they weren’t going to follow up anyway. They wanted a quick, easy fix … usually there aren’t any. Still, I offered the advice and maybe bits and pieces of it stuck with some of them.

The value of this forum to me is knowing there are experienced hands out there like you, Donn, Carl, Jason, and many others (that don’t come to mind right now) that are willing to share your experience. Each time a question is asked I glean a bit of info from everything you guys say. Does that mean I am going to go apply EVERYTHING that EVERYONE says verbatum? No, but it gives me a starting point to consider what the options are. Many times I would see someone post a question and would develop an answer in my mind as to how I would approach it. Then after reading the various responses I have an “Ah, ha” moment and I can apply that insight to my situation, if applicable. Point is, if guys such as yourself don’t offer your input we all lose. Please reconsider your desire to limit your responses.

On a lighter note, this forum is a great way for me to do something educational when the slipped disc in my lower back hurts so bad that I can’t sleep … like right now.

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