Horses standing

[Does’ Leap]

Geoff:

I also like the to have my horses untied while harnessing. This summer I set up a “roundish” pen outside and attached to the barn where I harness. It was a simple affair of step in posts and one strand of poly wire. If my horse(s) moved while harnessing, I sent them on a couple of laps. They learned quickly and stood well thereafter.

Recently, they started moving again while harnessing so we will go back to the round pen for a reminder. However, that will have to wait until spring when I can get posts in the ground and reset up the pen.

Good luck.

George

[Iron Rose]

Never really thought about haveing a horse stand as for the most part mind always have. Though when starting a young they are usually harnessed first thing in the morning and not unharnessed till evening. When not working the older horse is usually tied somewhere but the colt is not ( usually they are tied to the hame ring on the other horse) . Sometimes I have had to hobble one that was a litle antsy for a couple of days. They stay hooked up all day this teaches the horse patience. My horses will generally stand anywhere I put them from loading the spreader with skid steer to letting me make minor adjustments,to visiting with a neighbor. The one thing that I insist that my horses know is WHOA and I mean RIGHT NOW, nothing worse than a horse that thinks he should stop when he’s ready (Just not safe ).

Did have a Logging horse that would not stand if you didn’t have the lines. Never went to far or got in trouble , thought more with his stomach that his head. Always had chain his eveners to a tree if I wanted him to be there. Heck of a horse in spite of that and he never got over it.
Dan

[grey]

Joel, that is an interesting question. I have never given a lot of thought to “why”, although I have always done it (harnessed with the horse untied).

I don’t know about others’ reasons for it, but I find that if I go out with the expectation that my team will stand still for harnessing, they’ll generally stand still for everything else a bit better. Conversely, if the horse won’t stand still for harnessing, I know I’d better watch him while we are driving and not expect that he’ll stand well if I have to leave them to get a gate or perform some other off-the-seat task.

Generally, when I tie my horses they are allowed to do a certain amount of shuffling and fidgeting… tied to the trailer, in a tie stall, on a highline. However, I trim feet and harness and groom with the horses untied. In these situations they are not allowed to move their feet at ALL.

I can’t think of any time when they are tied and I don’t want them to move. I also can’t think of any time that I don’t want them to move and I tie them.

I guess I harness them untied because it lets them know that they are on their own recognizance. I think it helps make them more trustworthy.

I usually harness in the aisle or in the doorway of the barn and there isn’t a good place to tie them there. So part of the reason I trained them to stand untied for harnessing is out of convenience. I don’t want ropes in the way of my getting around the horses.

Hoping to hear someone else chime in with their reasons for harnessing untied.

[Rod44]

I harness and unharness untied just to teach them to stand in one spot untill I tell them they can move. When I unharness one and have the harness hung up, I release her by giving a little tug on her halter to go into her stall and have some grain. The other one waits untill she is unharnessed for her grain.

I use whoa only to stop, easy to slow down and stand to stand.

[sickle hocks]

I’ve been trying to work a lot on ‘standing’ lately and bumped into some questions… I’m using the boys daily to feed, ground driving singles as they drag a small hay sled. They are pretty good at standing with dropped lines while i fork hay off the sled. I’m still taking a second to unhitch them each time so if something goes really wrong there won’t be a scary sled chasing them.

What are you’re rules on eating while standing? There’s the odd whisp of hay blown across the snow to where they are working. I have been correcting if a foot moves, but letting a bit of nibbling go…but I’m thinking this might be a bad habit and will lead to ‘creeping’ as well. What do you folk do…zero tolerance for eating or do you mind? I would rather not add gear like check reins or muzzles. I hope to grow them into a solid, useful farm team…my main priorities in a team are safety and a relaxed attitude.

(not as much horse-time as I would have liked while we were getting set up out here, but it’s settling down and now that i’m using them daily I think I’m going to be able to keep at it and advance them to where I need them to be…hope so anyway)

[Donn Hewes]

I also like to keep extra things off my harness if I don’t think they are needed. I personally don’t want to work horses or mules with out check reins. First of all, they all want to eat; perhaps some are trained not to, but they all want to. Eating while standing is just as bad as anything else. Eating almost always leads to moving. I like a simple check that goes over one hames and back to the bit. I have cut the hangers off of bridles because I don’t like them. I won’t work my own animals with out checks. Just my two cents. Donn

[sickle hocks]

Thanks Donn, I was hoping for your input. After today it became obvious even to me that something needs to be done. Ironically it’s only starting to become an issue as they relax more and get settled into a routine, but I don’t like where it’s going.

Do you dislike the geometry of how the hangers work or are they just a nuisance? I am happy with a long and low head carriage right now and really don’t want to interfere with that.

With a single check do you hang it on the outside of the horse when it is in a team?
I think I’ll play around with a bit of baler twine tomorrow and see if i can find the sweet spot for length and position.

[Donn Hewes]

Well, I should ( NOT) really encourage people to cut up nice new bridles! but I just get rid of parts I don’t want. They take an extra 1/2 second to put the bridle on neatly. I never have the pieces between the ears for the same reason. The one difficulty you may have with a check is teaching a horse that is determined to eat (they will try to pull everything over their head in an attempt to eat). The checks that are hitched into the britchen may do this a little more effectively than the ones over the hames. But if I have an offender I just shorten the check a little until they learn then I loosen it to a good working length again. For the head carriage I prefer (low); the side pieces on the bridle really don’t do anything.

[Mark Cowdrey]

Donn,
“pieces between the ears”?
I am unclear as to which pieces you mean.
Thanks,
Mark

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Mark, A lot, but certainly not all draft bridles have a piece that comes from back to front between the ears. Mostly decorative in my opinion. Some stop at the brow band with a little leather flower or flourish. Some are split face bridles that continue down the center until splitting left and right to the bit ring. While I am not really talking about altering the split face bridle (as this holds them together) I have never really liked them as much as bridles that have a standard nose band over the nose. I am not suggesting that others should assume my bias. I really only dislike them for one reason – it takes an extra second and effort to make the manes fit with these bridles. I don’t like to see a bridle put on with disregard for the hair.

I wish I had a good series of photos to depicted all the variations on bridles that are out there. I have my favorites. but I am sure we all do. I recently had a couple bridles made with halter pieces added. So far I like them.

[Carl Russell]

It’s interesting…. I prefer the split faced bridle for exactly the same reason. I just think the nose band gets in the way….

Also I roach my manes so I never have to deal with mane at all…

As far as checks, I use a small leather loop, like a short set of riding reins. Most of the time they just ride loose on top of the neck, but if I have a grabber, I check him up by looping on the hame, or to a clip on the top hame strap.

I do see eating and reaching for food as a potential for creeping, but generally if my horse cannot reach because of the check, then they will stand like they are expected to. This points to the difference that I see in the exercise of standing. A horse’s tendency to move when in whoa, is more related to their lack of clarity in the expectation, than it has to do with them distracted with reasons to move.

Whoa(stand) is not a command in my vocabulary, it is a reward for execution of commands. Pressure on the bit indicates the need to be attentive to my initiative, release is the reward for following that initiative. Standing is a reward for them, and they learn to love it. If a horse will not stand comfortably, I believe that they have not gotten a clear idea of the difference between the pressure and the release.

I watch the animal and time them mentally. If they get bored and start creeping at 3 minutes, then the next time I stop them, I wait 2 minutes, get their attention, then move them. This exercise does not get the feeding done, nor the logs hitched, but I have found that the time spent on getting the horse to know how to stand is time well spent. When they learn that they move at your discretion, then they learn to relish the reward, the chance top stand still. When I see them taking more advantage of the time, and resting comfortably, I wait longer, stretching the time, until I can see the distinct recognition that they are waiting for my next command.

I have pointed this out before, but I believe that using Stand as a command is an action of putting pressure on a horse to do what you want to give them as a reward. This leads to confusion, never quite sure when they get the release. And remember, all the great horsemen acknowledge that the horse learns on the release, not on the repetition.

Some people think I take it to an extreme, but I reward my horses with whoa after every execution. I stop them when pulling hard to reward them for the effort. I stop them after a haw, before I ask them to back. I ask them to step back 5 steps, and reward them with a whoa, before continuing to back into the barn. I stop between haw and gee, unless in the course of traveling. When whoa is used as a reward, and thrown into regular use, then standing is never something that needs to be taught.

The knowledge that you will provide the release, and the time to stand, is a big part of the trust that will increase the focus on your leadership, that will lead to more effective work. The horse’s trust in your leadership, will boost their confidence in the working situation, and they will be content to stand and wait until you want to engage them again.

At least according to my rationale, and practice.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Mark Cowdrey 40450 wrote:

Donn,
“pieces between the ears”?
I am unclear as to which pieces you mean.
Thanks,
Mark

I like that….. it always comes down to the piece between the ears….:p

Carl

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Carl, I love reading different ways of putting something. Even though I have always thought of “whoa” as a command to stop; the way I treat it is much more as a reward as you describe. A lot of “teaching” horses to stand is learning how to be near by, but leave them alone (released). Be aware of what they can and can’t do on their own. Using whoa in tight spaces allows animals a chance to balance themselves. I would rather take an extra second and have the foot fall just where I wanted it. I saw a picture of your horse up above (Intro to working horses); beautiful roached horse with split bridle! talk to you soon. Donn

“That piece between the ears is always getting in the way” !

[Ronnie Tucker]

always keep them reined up.never allow any grazing.if they still try it use a crupper .

[sickle hocks]

Thanks for your posts. I also think of whoa as a command to follow instantly, but the chance to stand afterward as a reward. If someone gets restless we’ve been going off trail for a circle or two in the deep snow…standing is a lot less work and seems to be preferred.

The other issue I’m having is them anticipating ‘walk’. If I was just training, I’d make things really random and tough to anticipate but as I’m working there is a certain amount of routine and they sure pick up on it fast.

After standing I move into place, pick up the reins and get a bit of contact and then ask for ‘walk’ with my voice and by turning my body ‘on’ (working without blinders so they are able to see me). I realized I had been turning my body on before using my voice and they were walking off that…it didn’t seem fair to correct that as I like using a sequence of increasing intensity cues for whatever I ask, so now I’m trying to turn on body and voice at the same time as I’d really like them to wait for the voice.)

Anyway they are starting to want to go when I first take line contact. We are practicing standing around a bit like that, or going off in a circle and coming back if they need to. Anything else I should be doing?

The boys had a day off yesterday, today I’ll try a baler twine check rein and see how it goes…

( i am a bit afraid that i’m going to create a team that only i can use without a bunch of retraining, especially as i’m careful about my body language and not everyone is or cares, which could cause a lot of confusion)

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