hot heads

[PeytonM]

I don’t really know where I should put this so mod’s feel free to move this.

I just got two horses, a Paint Friesian cross with a filly at her side that’s papa was a percheron, and the mare is bred back do a different percheron.

Now both these horses have very little work, the mare is 5 and the filly isn’t a year yet they are both kind of flighty. I’ve been watching a lot of stuff from like Buck, Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt all mostly dealing with the riding side of things.

I want to hear your thoughts, when your breaking something how do you do it and control your emotion. I get frustrated rather easy some times and just get to the point where the smallest things just drive me nuts. I’m not running around cussing and yelling at people but I just get really really pissed and shut down and I get quiet.

any tips on how I could control that. I’m sure I’m not the only one that struggles with this.

thanks for the help.

[Dickel]

I might not be the person to answer your question but when I see one of my horses getting frustrated I stop and start rubbing its head and neck. When every thing is calm I go back to the same thing that caused it to get frustrated and work at it until it get thru it or I need to go back to head and neck rubbing. I may be totally wrong but it is how I do it. Kinda how I have to keep my wife happy. (:^D

[Billy Foster]

Maybe this will help, at least I can say I know what you feel like. I used to race sled dogs, for about 15 years, and won a lot of races towards the end of my doing it. When I first started working with the dogs (early days) I would get frustrated and am ashamed to say I would sometimes take it out on them. I would ultimately feel bad about this but the cycle would continue. I think my training strategy was built around hoping the dog(s) did the right thing, if it did not they would be disciplined. I wanted to do well at racing and certainly the pressure I put on myself contributed to my short fuse. Eventually, after several years, I was so sick of the negative that came with training that I decided I had had enough and wanted to train differently. A friend of mine was using positive reinforcement training so I decided to give that method a try. As you know this method is based on setting the animal up to succeed and rewarding them for it. For me this was a huge success. The dogs responded well and I had a different attitude towards training. Using this method I had a couple mantras that I would use: 1. I am smarter that the dog don’t let yourself be made a fool of by them, 2. The dog never does anything wrong, he does exactly what a dog would do in that situation (George Attla said this). I think the second mantra was what really made the difference for me. When I started using horses on our farm a year ago I have found they respond very well to this as well. Now if the horse does not do what I want it is because I made the mistake, not him. Remember the horse is only going to do just what he would in that particular situation, it is my fault if I did not set the situation up correctly for him to do what I wanted. I am not saying I would never use “negative” reinforcement, I am just saying I work hard to set the horses, or my dogs, up to succeed.
With the horses, as with the dogs, I work on keeping them relaxed. One of my overriding goals for every time I work with them is keeping their heads calm while asking them to do what I want. I would not EVER let the horse have their way but I would spend as much time as needed to get them mentally ready to comfortably do what I say. When they do become stressed I will work on calming them, maybe by just asking them to do something they are very comfortable with. Take that problem situation and break it down into such small pieces that you can get them comfortable with each piece as you build up to where you wanted.
This method may sound “touchy feely” or that I let the horses walk all over me, I promise you this is not the case. I make no excuses for my hoses and have them to use, not to coddle. If something I need to do can be done using horses I am going to use the horses, I do not want to be looked at as fake or a poser. I have horses to farm with and not a farm to have horses.
Take this as you will, they were just some thoughts on what I have experienced.
Billy

[PeytonM]

well today at work I was thinking about this, I know breaking a young one can take you on a wild ride every now and again but this is what I was thinking, The mare was bred back do another stud, I think I got a collar that would fit on her, and I know that the one harness I have I could make small enough to fit her, shes about 16H and my smaller Belgian is 17.2H. when you do catch her she leads fine. some times likes to crowd you but for the most part she follows you around and walks really nice. I wanted to have hooked on the stone boat empty with my other Belgian, I figured this way she would have another horse near her that she could have a safety feeling cause shes not alone and yet with that stone boat, its heavy enough that they could pull it and if she trys to run away on me my Belgian will listen to me.

When I first got my team I watch the movie “Buck” I really think that most people can do what he does, just got to take the time to understand a few things, well I had them hooked on this wagon and the neck yoke was sitting alittle low and I had to get some smaller links out of my shop and I had them stop and left the lines in the wagon, I heard a rock get kicked and I knew one of them was starting to walk, it was my bigger horse and I come out of the shop at a rather fast very upset walk right straight at him and looked him dead in the eye. I know he thought he was going to get a beating of a life time but i just pulled his head down to mine and I said very forceful ” don’t you ever take another step on me” and to this day when I tell my team whoa and they stop I could drop the lines and walk away and they might turn their heads and look at me but their feet stay put.

the other thing is what works good for catching a flighty horse? I know the guy I got her from would use feed but I dont want to be giving her things she would think are treats unless she earns it. I also know that oats and corn makes them even more spunky

I dont want to jump the gun with this mare, I think shes a little rowdy to throw a saddle on and I dont want her to get in to bucking and kicking cause she hasnt done it yet. would my idea work or no? I talked it over with a friend of mine and she thinking im gonna get killed but my stone boat is about 1700 I’d say empty, where I would pull it the ground is all tilled so I figured that would make it a little harder on her even still to run away, I’m not saying I’m gonna stand out there with a whip till she falls over also. just have her pull it till she gets tired and then stop then go when she gets ready again. I know the belgian will out pull her on his bad day but I figured I’d could set her in the hole and leave him out a little bit.

what are your thoughts? thanks

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Peyton, I have never tried to “search” before but it worked great. Try the search at the top of the page for “catching your horse” You might look at the thread called “retraining new horse”. Good luck. Donn

[PeytonM]

@Donn Hewes 34776 wrote:

I think there are some real skills involved in working / training this horse on pasture. His previous experiences with the grain bucket will be working against us to start with. He probably has been having his way in other ways as well, but catching him on pasture is as good a place to start as any. First some questions. Is he on pasture by himself? How big is it? What kind of fences does it have? Basically I am using round pen techniques in a larger area. If the area is too large it can be more difficult to get the proper message across, but it can be done. In some cases (tough) it might be worth the effort to make the paddock smaller. 250′ by 250′ is a good size. Ten times that is a little big.

The principals are pretty simple, the patience and skill to make it work are the hard parts. Here the rules. You pick the place in the paddock where you are willing to put the halter on. Anywhere in the middle, something like that. Corners and fences are out. We are not trying to corner or trap this horse. Those methods might catch a horse, but won’t teach what we want. Never approach the horse unless it is standing still, looking at you. In the ideal world it would be standing facing you, but we will leave that for the round pen. It could be perpendicular with its head your way. Never approach the butt, approach by walking to the shoulder or head. But the horse is not standing still you say. The object here is to tell the horse to move (read run). You may want to modulate the speed and change directions, but never let it eat. Any attempt to turn it’s butt toward you should increase the need for him to move. He will learn to keep an eye on you. When he stops in the right area, ( he will stop if he has used up some energy, and you lighten up the pressure on him.) ask him if he will stand as you approach. If or when he decides to move or or turn away from you, you continue to drive him froward. He doesn’t need to run wildly, but he needs to keep moving.

The problem quickly becomes; how far do you have to run to make him move and keep his head up. This is where size of paddock can make a difference. Only the really zany like me will attempt this in a large apple orchard. I pretty much do it where ever they choose. There are tricks to making them run more than us. If they want a spot or the gate or to be with other animals, you go back and forth and exclude them from the place they want. My herd of horses have seen all this before. It is funny to watch them cavort for a couple laps with the untrained animal, and then they slowly say “your own your own” Then they stand at the gate and watch the show. In any case the trick is to not run as far as the horse. In fact most of us will need to run a lot less than the horse in order to make our point before we fall over.

It can be fun work. The trainer should be calm, and relaxed, not impatient. The horse is making all the choices and eventually he will realize the way out of this silly predicament is to let you approach and halter them. Then give them a little pat / rub and lead them as if nothing ever happened. A tough case will try again the next day. But because of your growing skill and their high intelligence it will not take nearly so long. Some young horses and mules will take a refresher about once a year. Usually some particularly sunny, fresh spring day, when you have absolutely no time for such nonsense.

Don,

I used what you said here to a point, the pen she is in currently is about 10-15 acres. I had her in a round pen but due to my stupidity she ended up jumping over the gate and got to run with all the other horses. her filly is still in the round pen and is doing great! before it took about 10 mins before she would come up by you and now you walk in and you can walk right up to her. today I worked on catching the mom, I walked up to her super slow and would just stay in front of her if she would move to the right I would step to the left. I got so close to her im sure I could have caught her but ever time i would put my hand out she would get rather nervous and start to back up. at one point I got really close and just let her sit there and think it over and relax and was talking to her very softly saying ” your ok” and then after a while she started to back up again.

I ran out of time to fuss with her, I had to get going to work I think I might have sent a mixed message to her.

Would harnessing her help out or no? once I catch her I have a smaller pen at my place I want to put her in so shes use to me walking back and forth and hopefully she wont get so jumpy.

thanks for the help Don, it helped greatly, I just didnt have enough time today.

[Donn Hewes]

As I suggested it seems so simple but really can be quite nuanced. Remember we are using s
a method called pressure and release. Knowing when to apply the pressure and when to release it; and how and where to apply it is the key to success. In a round pen never try to inch up on the horse, this is what we are trying teach them is neither necessary, nor acceptable. You should be able to walk up in a slow, calm, but deliberate manor. I don’t approach from the butt or back, only the face or front half. When an animal starts to move away, or back up; (they are free to go) I just step back to the middle and make them move. Some of what I described above is unique to what I would do in a pasture (make them run for example). In a round pen they will likely run of their own accord, but I use as little pressure as possible to make them move. I will stand nearly still while they run, turning and using a hand to tell them where to go, but adding little or no energy. Making them change directions occasionally is also good for the horse that is not ready to accept you. As they slow you need to choose when to make them move on or let them stop. Read their body language. When they stop, that is good, but what is their body language? facing you? Looking at you? Looking away? This is how you decide when to approach. if they aren’t paying attention to me and looking at me, preferably facing me, I will ask them to continue to move.

Don’t worry to much about sending a mixed message. we all try to figure out what they are thinking and feeling, but often we do it to a fault. we attribute way more negative ideas to them than they really have. Just think positively about what you plan to do.

[fogish]

I spent a lot of time with a lot of different horses doing exactly what Donn is talking about. I ended up setting aside a minimum of 6 hours, preferably an entire day, with no goal other than to approach the horse. I went from no horse experience and bumbling my way around, to catching most any horse I want in just a few minutes. Still when I go out with a horse the first time I set aside 6 hours and only a simple goal, that way I have absolutely no pressure and the chances of me getting frustrated or losing my temper are nearly zero. If I ever get frustrated I know it means that I set a goal I wasn’t aware of or I need more time or steps to accomplish the goal that I have set.

I put a harness on my horse early on, he rolled first thing and snapped a terret ring and then tried to run. I was able to work with him while he was wearing it and ground drive him rather early on, but I found that we have been able to learn and accomplish new tasks faster after I spent more time working with him on backing up, side stepping, following and suddenly stopping and sacking him out like crazy. I exposed him to so many different things, anything I could find I introduced him to. With me being there working with him he would accept things from me faster and faster. Now I don’t even have to introduce him to things, he will walk over or through anything (minus sewer lids – no clue), I can put anything on his back, he will take a bite of anything I hand him without hesitation. He has not however been so kind as to do the same things for anyone else.

Do you want to take her green (does she have any experience at all?) and hook her up as a team and start pulling the stone boat? If that’s true what’s the rush? You have all winter and right up to foaling to get a really solid foundation and some light or simulated work done with her.

[PeytonM]

well I have yet to catch her, she now just turns her butt towards me ever since that one day when I would just stay in front of her. I haven’t had a lot of time to deal with her, I spend a lot of time with her filly, I can walk right up to her and shes really really mellow now. If I would do something to make her jump or flinch I would wait a bit and keep doing it up till she would stop doing it, the one thing was when she was eating I would raise my arm, and she would follow my hand up, so the next time I did it I just left my hand up for a little bit, and after that she wouldn’t follow it. she would just stand there.

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