How about fire wood with horses

[TaylorJohnson]

Any of you guys out there done any amount of fire wood with your horses? I am talking about enough to make a living at . I have a 20 acre job that is almost all fire wood to do. I will start it soon and I have a lot of people that want it ( truckers mostly that sell by the 10 cord load) . We are getting $125.00 a pickup load cut and split or any were from $65.00 to $75.00 a rick.
Full cords are going for any were from $85.00 to $125.00 per truck load ( log truck load) . I was wishing I had a truck to haul about 2.5 cords or so because I would sell smaller loads for about $150.00 a cord or so.
What are you all getting for fire wood in your neck of the woods? And do any of you guys have any data on what a cord of wood is worth compared to gas as fare as energy out put? Like gallons of gas/lp comparing to face cord of fire wood. Taylor Johnson

[lancek]

Taylor,
Was doing a lot of firewood last year and was getting $65.00 To $75.00 per 8′ cord, and 150.00 for split and delivered! but that was in indiana look out for the guys that say they can move lotts of wood most times they are blowing smoke! If I remember right you have that horse drawn forwarder dont you ? If thats the case on your split wood I would find some 48×40 pallets get some 2×2 oak and make 3 post on each side stack your wood on the pallet you will get a rank on a pallet if you sack it to 60″ Then you can use your loader to move it from there on and you only need to handle it once!
Hope this helps Lancek

[TaylorJohnson]

Ya, I have heard that before to about moving a lot of wood and this and that. Most of the time they got about 3 or 4 loads sold then there waiting to.
The fire wood bizz can be tough but if your steady at it you can make a little. I might buy a pickup box trailer 3/4 ton that I can pull behind my truck or my logging arch,, in fact I think I will buy 2 . I can pull them around the trails on this job and pick up cut and split wood load it in the trailer pull it out to the landing hook it to my truck and throw a load on the truck to and make a delivery. That would be a $250.00 dollar pay load plus I could charge for trucking. I will also sell 8′ wood to the truckers and folks that want it. Fire wood is a by product of logging and the logging is slow here now so not as much fire wood on the market. I hope it holds strong for a wile. That is what these guys around here were getting last year for prices in there yards so I think it will , less loggers now than then. Taylor Johnson

[cousin jack]

This is the way I have gone over here, simply to get started I struck a deal with the wood owner to take out sycamore, birch, the odd ash and oak. I pay him for the standing tree on a tonnage basis, I then fell, extract, split, sell and deliver. Firewood is a good market here at the moment, with everyone installing woodburners due to rising oil costs. But, as with most things it probably won’t last, so make hay while the sun shines.

[Michael Colby]

Horse logging plus firewood equals great exercise. Hey, it’s cheaper than a health club (for you and the horses).

And now that I’ve gotten my snarky response out of the way, let me admit to this: I’m in the middle of my second firewood job this month.

My first firewood job this month was the kind that I try to get: Pulling firewood for landowners and being paid by the hour for my services. Key words: Paid by the hour. I charge anywhere from $35-45/hour, depending on the travel, my mood, the terrain, the customer, etc.

This job was for a repeat customer who wanted to save money by cutting and limbing his own trees. Despite my warnings that it really wouldn’t end up saving him much money, he insisted. And, sure enough, it didn’t save him much money since he mostly cut the wrong trees, in the wrong direction, in the wrong places and in the wrong lengths (too short).

But, then again, he had the last laugh (for now), by declaring upon the completion of the job that he was “broke.” First time this ever happened to me. But after the necessary steps of anger, embarrassment, denial and then back to reality, we worked out a payment plan for the coming months (yes, months). Breathe and repeat after me: It was good exercise for me and the horse.

Job number two involves my own land and the firewood byproduct of thinning out a young sugarbush. If it wasn’t my land, it wouldn’t be worth it but here’s what I’ve calculated so far:

On my best days, I can cut and pull between three and four cords in a day to my landing. I can sell a truckload of about 7 cords to customers for about $750. My trucker charges me $275/per load for trucking. This means I’m netting $475 a load. And, remember, none of this takes into account my other expenses — fuel, horse feed, breakdowns, etc.

It wouldn’t work if I didn’t own the land. And it won’t last, because I own the land and I’m only trying to thin a maple stand.

Which brings me back to my first point: Exercise.

Despite my problems with the firewood client who failed to pay, I really think horse loggers should be marketing this service more aggressively. There are a number of land trust, current use and otherwise just land rich folks out there who need to know that we can work to revive their forest land AND provide them with an essential product (read: firewood).

End of story.

[Scott G]

There are people out here that make a living with firewood, especially around the resort areas where fireplaces receive year round use and campground contracts. The norm, however, is that it is very tough to make a full time go at it unless you have large volumes of low value wood and large mechanical processors and contracts to go with it.

That said, I earn a substantial amount of my woods income from firewood sales, primarily to people that use it as primary or supplemental heat for their homes. This time of year finds me scrambling to get my firewood contracts filled. The phone starts ringing off the hook in late-August/early-September. I have quit advertising selling wood in 8’ bolts as I can make much more for the time invested in running it through the splitter and delivering it. I get $185/full cord, $105/half cord, delivered and dumped (20 mile radius). I’m not the most inexpensive wood around by far, but have built my client base and reputation on supplying a quality, seasoned product. I have a ¾ ton flatbed that has a dump hoist on it that works great for handling fuelwood. In short, firewood is a very important part of my income stream and during the start of the season (now) everything else in the woods gets put on hold. The usual transition is then to start collecting Doug-fir boughs that my wife then turns into wreaths for the holidays and sells for $35 a pop. 10 wreaths come out of a garbage bag of boughs, not bad income. That is the highest value “non-timber forest product” that we produce by far.

Taylor, as far as your question of comparing heating values and costs of various fuels you are asking a question that is right down my alley. Managing/promoting a sustainably produced woody biomass supply for thermal energy is a big part of what I do in the State, not only for the County but regionally. The USFS Forest Products Lab in Madison, WI has produced a fuel value calculator that is very easy to use. Go to the link below that is a calculation workbook. When opened, look at the bottom and click on the tab “fuel calc”. When you have that page opened, in the highlighted cell on row 24, enter the fuel type that the consumer is currently using (or would be the standard for what is available, i.e., fuel oil, propane, NG, etc.). That will reset all of the other fuel types to what the cost would be for the same amount of energy, efficiency percentages included. This is a very handy, simple, to the point method that I use to show folks, agencies, etc., the value of using sustainable, locally produced woody biomass for thermal energy. It is a great tool to sell firewood, chips, and pellets to prospective clients.

Hope this helps, let me know if you need help with the fuel calculator.

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/techline/fuel-value-calculator.xls

[Carl Russell]

I have also sold wood for many years as a bi-product of forest improvement harvesting operations. I have found that although the money seems better when split and delivered, it has to be, for up-keep of truck and equipment, and it is time away from the horses and the woodlot.

Cutting and selling fuelwood log length is hard enough when it comes from a job that has logs, but when it is purely wood, it can be trying.

If I put out 3-4 cords per day and get $50/cd on the landing, I figure I am doing the minimum that I need. The truth of the matter is that we should be getting the same value for puling wood as we can get for pulling sawlogs. Same time, same labor, same expenses.

It is one of my pet peeves with the forestry community. Sawlogs always pay for low-grade harvest. Landowners are footing the bills to keep the big mechanical operations alive pulling huge quantities of low-grade in the name of utilization. There is a lot of good timber that is cut before its time to “sweeten the pot” so that fuelwood can be affordably removed.

As horse-loggers we have an opportunity to break from this model, and market fuelwood harvest as forest improvement. Get paid what we are worth (as Michael pointed out), and really show how being patient and purposeful in the forest will pay off better in the long run.

Carl

[TaylorJohnson]

Thanks Scott G I will check it out.
I got this job for $5.00 a cord and I have to cut all the oak because there trying to restore it all to white pine again. There are some logs on the job but it is not a log job , more fire wood than any thing else. I am hoping to be able to stay in that $70.00 a cord range on the landing for my 8′ stuff . I have been making some calls and it sounds like I should be able to. I hate to work cheap but man right now it is just a survival game until things improve a bit. I have some hourly stuff coming up but it seems like no one can make a move right now , there waiting because of money. I will be selling wood cut and split to and that should help me move some product. Plus the land owner is going to keep the road and landing plowed out for me so and up here that is a big expense for the 5 months it will need it. It will be nice to stay out of the red pine for a wile ,, that stuff is tough to make any thing in for sure . I have to go and look at a Maple job here real soon and that would be nice to get it is a 160 acres with maple and bass wood and right now i have a market for both.
When I took this job I thought I would have some help on it to but now I will not . Just cant do it with the cost of insurance and all. It is a joke that in the United States of America that 2 men cant inter into a contract or sign a waver that they will not sue one another . It is impossible to put some one to work with workers comp being what it is and most guys are not willing to make the commitment that it takes to be self employed and do subcontract work. I have at least 3 guys right now that would go to work for me right now that I cant do any thing with because of insurance. If I could put them to work it would up my income and give them something to do instead of twiddling there thumbs . I wish they would get off are backs and let us do what we have to do. That is the difference in America today and when my Dad was young ,, back then when times got tough a bunch of guys could get together and make a go of it and help one anther out cutting skidding what ever now well you have to careful every one wants to sue every one else ,,,, it is all BS. Lawyers are ruining are country and there is no common sense left in law. Contractual law means nothing any more if it did wavers would hold up in court and people could sign them and work together! Well I am done with my rant for the morn so we will talk to you all later. Taylor Johnson

[Carl Russell]

Oh I agree with you Taylor. Used to be able to buy food right from the farmer too. We will not make it as long as we’re afraid to work together, or interact in a free manner. What ever happened to personal responsibility???

Carl

[Joshua Kingsley]

@Carl Russell 11222 wrote:

We will not make it as long as we’re afraid to work together, or interact in a free manner. What ever happened to personal responsibility???

Carl

What happend is they started awarding millions for spilling hot coffee in your lap. The crooked get rich and those who are willing to work are the ones who suffer. It really is too bad that we are unable to sign off and have it standup if somthing happens. On that note I found out the hard way about written contracts and logging. The land owner still owes me LOTS of $$…. best of luck to all of you in the woods and fields.
Josh

[Scott G]

“I have also sold wood for many years as a bi-product of forest improvement harvesting operations. I have found that although the money seems better when split and delivered, it has to be, for up-keep of truck and equipment, and it is time away from the horses and the woodlot.” –Carl

The 10 yo splitter I have runs strong and requires very little maintenance cost for the 2 hours it takes to split/load a cord. If the transportation is to town (which it usually is) I try to tie the delivery into picking up supplies, tools, errands, etc. to further expense out the trip. Even though all of us would like to stay in the woods, the truth is that we need to market every wood product or service to its highest value to make a go of it. To be linearly integrated through the process, including value-added products such as processed firewood, lumber from the portable mill, etc., and sold at the retail level; I believe is key into making a successful business model out of what we do in the woods with our horses.

“Cutting and selling fuelwood log length is hard enough when it comes from a job that has logs, but when it is purely wood, it can be trying.

If I put out 3-4 cords per day and get $50/cd on the landing, I figure I am doing the minimum that I need. The truth of the matter is that we should be getting the same value for puling wood as we can get for pulling sawlogs. Same time, same labor, same expenses.” –Carl

True, Carl. Firewood, pulp, and woody biomass are by far the lowest value products to come out of the woods. If the revenue at the landing doesn’t match the operational costs plus profits to get the job done, then the net difference needs to be recouped for that aspect of the operation. “Low grading” generally equates to TSI, which in turn indicates costs should be born by the landowner or the agency as a forest management service.

”It is one of my pet peeves with the forestry community. Sawlogs always pay for low-grade harvest.”-Carl

Again, depends on what model you use. If the logger has to remove the material and is depending on the sawlogs to cover the deficit, then in effect he is operating at a loss. If the landowner is using stumpage value from sawlogs to offset the cost of the concurrent equivalent to a TSI job than that is a good thing. The landowner is using some higher value product to offset out of pocket cost for the betterment of their forest. That is a model that is becoming more popular out here when there are higher value products that can be sustainably harvested at the same time while maintaining/enhancing ecological integrity.

This goes back to a previous thread; the logger/practitioner cannot bear the cost out of pocket to enhance someone else’s forest. Even though it is counterintuitive not to work, it is better not to work than work at losing money.

Make money at the landing and then make money from a linearly integrated process, value adding to the wood you hang on to…

“ Landowners are footing the bills to keep the big mechanical operations alive pulling huge quantities of low-grade in the name of utilization. There is a lot of good timber that is cut before its time to “sweeten the pot” so that fuelwood can be affordably removed.”-Carl

If, as you say, they are doing entries before an appropriate rotation cycle, than that is a major problem. More from a forest practices/silvicultural aspect than a harvesting aspect. If that type of forestry is kept in check than the value of that material would increase and problems with operational costs would be somewhat mitigated. Being someone who is buried in the biomass world, I am constantly confronted with project developers that are pulling a feasibility cost per ton out of their backside. I am the first one to jump to the forefront and demonstrate that the cost to the landing is the cost to landing, period. If the product costs don’t pencil out for the project, than quite simply it immediately failed the feasibility study. Our forests cannot bear the brunt of an artificially manipulated market to justify an emerging energy source. That is why I am a big fan of small, local, thermal biomass systems and vehemently opposed to large-scale cellulosic ethanol and power generation plants and probably one of the most outspoken opponents, from a land manager’s perspective, in our region. They have to reach out too far for product, embrace an artificial, rotational sustainable yield model, and ship the money to out of area investors. There, now I’ll reluctantly step down from my soapbox…

[lancek]

No Scott keep going you are absulutly RIGHT

[Carl Russell]

Scott, I don’t have any problem with any of your points. Most of what I was reacting to is the standard that is set for the most part by the larger more mainstream enterprises. When loggers have to work backwards from the landing price to try to determine the feasibility of a job, it is because of the effect that these other operations have on the market.

In general in this area, fuelwood is considered an asset to the landowner, and sold for $5-10/cd stumpage. The going rate for low-grade is determined by prices controlled by the secondary processors.

That is all well and good, but in order to facilitate timber sales, which is how consulting foresters get paid, these foresters will mark timber that is attractive to the harvesters getting them to swallow the low landing value of the fuel/pulp/bio/wood. This creates the image that these foresters are actually getting something done that is assumed to be beneficial, but in the long run actually does nothing to improve the residual growing stock.

I believe that landowners should be bearing the cost of improvement work, such as the swap of stumpage from sawlogs to cover the deficit for harvesting wood, but hidden this way it does a double disservice. First by oftentimes swapping out enough quality timber so that the residual stumpage value really never increases from one harvest to the next. And second by artificially keeping the market value of low-grade low, by never putting pressure on the secondary processors to have to pay what it actually costs to produce.

As far as the processing of wood, if you are covering your costs at any point in the process then it should be worth it. I have split and delivered, and I have sold log length off the landing. In both cases I have found it reasonable, within limits. What some people try to do is make up for the low landing value of log length wood by the processing it, trying to make another profit center by capitalizing the required machinery.

This can work, for a while, and generally leads to greater investment in more efficient infrastructure for economy of scale, which often leads to separate operations. All of that capital investment requires that the value of the raw product stay low, because one has to use the equipment to pay for it, which forces one to use it regardless of the market.

My basic premise is that low-grade material removal is extremely important to value-added forestry. Reducing low-grade increases average residual stumpage immediately, and allows for the increase in that value through improved growth. Because of this, the product from this work should have value that reflects the value of the work.

Carl

[Jim Ostergard]

Good thread. On the firewood thing, just finished a conventional (cable skidder, Hardy 17′ extenda-boom trailer) job where part of it was to deliver to the land owner 16 cords of 8′ wood. We charged $80/cord. The pile was just off our landing so no extra distance travelled to suck up time. We arrived at this rate by backing out the trucking we would pay to send it somewhere else and stumpage that we were paying on the other wood. Interesting though we were doing about 3-4 cords a day but this was in addition to other wood produced.
I’m starting a job with Rusty (and perhaps a new younger horse!!) which is hopefully going to be a yearly thing of 6-12 cords of firewood for a local CSA farm. Its pretty next door to me and I did said I wood do it for $25/hr. Wanted to get in the door and the visibility should be high. Hoping for more work.
I too wish we could take on help as was done in the old days. I have folks call all the time. In a perfect world I would find a chopper who just loved to cut and I could run the horse all day. I do have a friend a wonderful horse trainer who can run a saw and run a horse. She has independent status and when we work together it is wonderful, but not the norm.
Generally most of the work I get is softwood, pulp and low grade logs not much hardwood for firewood.
Jim

[TaylorJohnson]

This fire wood job I am going to start I got last year and at the time I thought I would have some help ( but I was not banking on it) but when they looked into there cost to start and what they could make ,,, well they just stepped back. One man even has a nice team of black mares and a log arch but until I can figure something out he can not be on the job. With a little help I could easily get out 5 to 6 cords a day. Now that is not going to flood any markets but it would make for a more steady income and we could all make a little.
Tim Carrol and a Man named Mark from up in northern MN came up with a good way to work as a group wile horse logging, it goes on shares . Every man, team, saw, tool truck ,,, what ever gets used is worth something. It sounds complicated but it is not once you see it work but there again if every one don’t have the insurance and all the BS then it cant work not because it cant just because THEY SAY SO! I could put quite a few guys to work in this fire wood and I think make a much better go of it.
It is hard at time to get these land owners to understand that What we do is worth the money and time to them and there land. From what I have seen most foresters don’t help the move meant to much . I am starting to just get calls from people that want me to cut wood but I did a lot of pounding on doors before to find projects to work on. I really believe that what we are doing is a good thing on many levels but the system is stacked against us right now. I think a big step in getting over this would be having the right to work with one another to up volumes and to get jobs done in a more timely fashion.
I taught a young man to drive horses last winter and he loved it and he had the strength to work hard but when it cam down to going to work and when faced with what he had to do just to work he could not do it , he even had a horse. So he looked around for a job for about three months and eventually ended up in jail for jacking around and getting his truck stuck up on a big mud bank in the fair grounds ( he was on probation to start with for a bunch of hair brained stunts ) . Were if he would have been working with me he would have been to tired to go out and act stupid and get into trouble. He had a lot of pride in learning to drive a team and at one point he said he was so excited that he could not sleep ,,, well wouldn’t it me nice to put him to work pulling out fire wood this winter let him soak a couple of shirts a day . I bet his PO officer would be much happier with him and so would his parents,,, A 6′ 210 pound man that has an over abundance of energy and they wont let him just go to work at 18 years of age what a joke. If he was with me he would be tired out and would not act stupid because he knows I will not put up with it . If they would turn use loose I know that a lot of us on here could make a much better go of it in a lot of different types of stands. Taylor Johnson

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