How much to charge

[Scott G]

Feeling a bit surreal being back here on the mountain after a phenomenal week…

Tim, being a mule ain’t bad. They aren’t stubborn, they just have an uncanny sense of self-preservation & self-interest. Pretty necessary, quality traits to have as a logger.

Jimbo, first off it was great to meet you, man. I sure wish you could’ve stuck around but certainly empathize with your situation.

I purchased “Horse in the Forest” from RH a few years back. Gail Damerow literally “pasted” updates on new paper over original text, pretty custom!

Joe might still have a few copies laying around, give him a call.

As far as what Carl hauled off the brow. There were 3-5 singles twitching to that brow with predominantly novice loggers over ~ 2 days total. I’d say average twitch length was ~150′ and we were scrambling for wood. All of us spent considerable time behind the saw to keep us in wood as that was a challenge. Material coming out was primarily pulp as our priority was to keep sticks in front of the students to twitch, a lot of toothpicks were moved that otherwise would have stayed in the woods. There were only a couple of nice logs that I would have qualified as true sawlogs, but thats my interp coming from a different region. Plowden put his Scandinavian-inspired rig together for the last day and moved a lot of 8′-16′ small wood off the brow as well. Awesome system, perfect for the post & pole material I cut out here. I’ll be getting a PPS (Plowden Proficiency System) II in the very near future 😉

I’d throw out a rough distance of ~ 1/8 mile to final landing, so 1/4 mile turn total?? My visual estimate of distance out there is probably a bit off. But then again, I’m a bit off in a lot of ways…

‘Wicked’ awesome time, folks

[Carl Russell]

First of all there is a difference between the value of the material moved and the cost of moving it.

I did not mean to insinuate that I moved all sawlogs by estimating the size of the loads in terms of board feet. I just used board feet instead of saying cords. Either way, the loads were between 350-400 bf, or 2/3-3/4 cord. I moved 4 loads Sat Pm, leaving lunch at 1pm and returning at 4:30pm, and 4 Sun AM, leaving the barn at 8:30am and returning at 12:00pm with 1/2 hour break. I figure 1200-1600bf, or 2.5-3cd, or 12000-16000# in 3.5 hrs. I estimated the skid length at about 1000 feet, but no more…. possibly 800-900 feet.

If I were to charge $35/hr, the cost would be $122.5

That Brow I was hauling to was still a short haul from the truck landing, so there would be another forwarding cost, but at $50/mbf, or $25/cd,(figuring you have to take into consideration chopping, twitching, and second level forwarding, and still be less than the value of the logs roadside) the value of my contribution to the wood pile would be about $75, or more like $22/hr. Granted, I personally didn’t work that hard, but I had some assets at work.

What this highlights for me are several things. It was a tough trail to negotiate with a loaded sled. I would have been much different on snow, as well as if stumps were removed. I was just working on a trail I was told to, I really didn’t investigate other options. At any rate, this was an expensive access, and it is clear to me that to make any production income from that area, one would need to haul good quality material, and would plan that other areas on the site would afford more lucrative access.

Carl

[Jim Ostergard]

Carl,
I wasn’t assuming that you were moving saw logs only knowing the kind of wood in that stand. Just wondering how the Swedish list might have been applied to that particular part of the job. Or whether it was applicable at all. I agree that given a commercial harvest on that spot one might have made another twitch trail. Thanks for the comments.
Jim

[Carl Russell]

There are a few other considerations, such as these were only the first and second day we worked on this trail. I feel that after a few days the horses would become more conditioned to the particulars of the trail, and the loads could be increased. With frozen ground or snow, new horseshoes, and some time removing stumps (there was one real deal breaker on a turn after the bridge), I think we could be moving 500 bf at a time. Going another 100 feet we could have landed at the sawmill site, which could double as a truck landing.

With these improved conditions one might assume 1000bf/hr….

Carl

[Jim Ostergard]

I agree with you about that stump at the end of the bridge! Jason lost most of a scoot load there a couple of winters ago. Amazing how with a change in conditions the production would improve. With that stump gone, frozen ground/snow and being able to get that little bit further to good landing suddenly the job prospects really change. Again wondering if using a checklist like the Swedes would help when talking to a landowner or not. Most of us do this in our heads I suspect and for me that is getting less and less reliable. a restful and peaceful Thanksgiving to all.
jim

[Rick Alger]

A friend of mine, now deceased, was a teamster for the Brown Company in the 40’s. From what I remember of his stories, he didn’t haul any wood until freeze up in December. Hauling was then done on company built haul roads that were packed and maintained. They always led to the river or a lake, (mainly downhill) and they were often over a mile long.

An average two-sled load was 3- 4 cords, and an average day of sledding was three turns or 10 – 12 cords. He had a helper. They worked ten hour days, six days a week. Hauling ended just before spring break up.

If I remembered these details correctly, they certainly support Carl’s point about the effectiveness of bob sledding.

The challenge for modern horse loggers considering this method of forwarding is the cost and the impact of road building and the fact that it is truly efficient for only a few months out of the year. Also if you are loading saw logs, bob sleds and scoots require a helper (unless you’re a bull like Carl.)

Anyway, just some thoughts on a windy day before Thanksgiving.

[Rick Alger]

Hey Jim,

I checked out that payment schedule that you posted. I’ve never had a job where I was paid by the hour, but a lot of those categories are exactly what go into figuring a stumpage bid.

It might be useful to continue chewing this over in terms of North American forest types and logging practices.

Have a nice Thanksgiving.

[Jim Ostergard]

Thanks Rick,
Lots of wind here today also. Some gusts around 40 or so. Too wet to get into my woods, really looking forward to some cold weather. Thanks on your ideas on the price list. I am hoping folks will look it over and over time contribute to what might be useful and what is not. You too, have a restful Thanksgiving.
Jim

[Carl Russell]

Jim, I must say, I am kind of at a loss as how to interpret that list. I can’t tell what the dollar amounts are supposed to represent? Can you explain, or show an example?

Carl

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