How to get my horses into creeper gear

[Riverbound]

So, we’ve been using our horses to pull a water wheel transplanter behind a forecart to transplant vegetables. In order for the process to be effective, we need very slow walking. Baby steps. We might be able to speed up a bit in the future with better tilth, and therefore easier setting of the plants, but we’ll still be talking unnaturally slow for horses. So, to spare the horses mouths and minds, we’ve been leading them rather than drive them. And, it works ok for a while. “Step, woa. Step, woa…” with us walking backwards holding lead ropes. But, after a couple hours of this, keeping their focus is trying, on them and us. But, we need to get our plants in the ground, so we press on, frustrations be damned. We’ve got a lot more to go this season and in future seasons, so I’d like to improve the process. I can imagine me walking forwards, very slowly, lead ropes slack, horses with heads down baby-stepping behind me. I’ve gotten horses to act this way in the pasture, but not pulling a load and certainly not for hours on end. I’m asking a lot, apparently a little too much, but as far as my general experience in farming goes, that’s the way it goes: asking a lot. And to include horses means asking them the same. Am I being dense? We did get it done today, I didn’t lose my temper, I treated them with respect, but there was a lot of correction, stern talk, rope jerking and hard eye contact. We did follow up with some grain, grooming, alfalfa hay, pasture and two days off this weekend (Rain!:D) It wasn’t physically hard work, it was mentally hard. I hope that just doing it is going to make it get easier. Any suggestions? Training ideas? Driving ideas? Leading ideas? Attitudinal adjustment ideas (for me)? Thanks folks.
Brian

[Kevin Cunningham]

This kind of work might be the perfect place for oxen, just to a little evangelical. It sure seems that alot of farm work, maybe with the exception of haying, is best suit to walking, the normal pace of cattle. Not that you need another draft animal to train and care for but it sure seems like it is hard for horses to go slow.

[Riverbound]

I guess I won’t be getting oxen real soon, but that’s an interesting point. I think I might need draft tortoises from the Galapagos for this job. Generally I like the pace of a horse’s walk, in fact now that I think about it, it’s one of those things that draws me to working with them. Just this job in particular is a challenge. Thanks for the thought, though. I do like bovines.

[Donn Hewes]

Hi all, This a small suggestion as I think you are doing all the right things, and teaching them to go slow can be difficult. Over the years I have slowly come to the conclusion that the less said the better. Easier to hide your stray emotins that way. Horses don’t understand our language anyway. I am seeking to improve my hands ability to convey the message. I would start by demanding the pace that I need. Then seek every opportunity to lighten up, (pulsing to slow), encouraging the behavior I want with the lines. Permit them to relaxe. Good luck with that. I know David Fisher at Natural roots is useing a water wheel transplanter. I think he has just one team that can do that job. Fun to watch him cultivate tiny emerging plants at a slow walk.

[near horse]

Probably not a “practical solution” but Donn’s point about asking for and rewarding desired behavior got me thinking (again more theoretical and less practical). We have systems that reward/punish various behaviors (I’m thinking of jockey sticks, rope pulley hitches, even that famous evener of Carl’s). Do the right thing = easy. Do it wrong = harder. So is there a way to increase pull/draft/drag as ground speed increases? That, combined with line pressure/release could help reinforce the message – walking slow can be good.

I’m likely missing all of the obvious shortcomings of this idea but it hit me while reading this post. A new project for Andy?!

Forgot – as an old football coach we used to tell players at practice ” Do it right, do light. Do it wrong, do it long.” :confused:

[Carl Russell]

That kind of slow is really hard.

First I would suggest working on driving them at the desired speed somewhere else. Instead of taking the weekend off, get them out pulling a similar load down the lane, or along the edge of a field or something else. This will serve a few purposes. By getting away from the IMPORTANT task, you can relax a little more. With the anxiety of the important work sometimes it can be very hard to recognize the slightest tries.

Any expectation that pushes the horses so far out of their comfort zone must be accomplished by degrees. Trying to accomplish the perfect speed all at once is probably next to impossible, especially while doing the chore. The animals will make attempts to respond positively, but you are more likely to catch them in a partial response, and to make progress beyond that point you will need to reward that try…… probably several times.

I use mine for logging, with high expectations for pulling hard on heavy loads, then when cultivating I have to get them to use a completely different energy level. Like Donn says it rests a lot on how the message is conveyed through the lines.

I am a firm believer in driving instead of leading. I think you have much more subtle control over their forward motion with lines. The other factor is that the body language you use when leading is really wasted training if you ever intend to drive them, as you won’t be in front of them then, and they will likely correlate the slow walk on a lead with following that body language.

I remember one of my mentors (who was in his late 70’s) relating to me something his father told him when he was a kid….. “If you want to drive them, then drive them, don’t lead them.”

I used to limit myself to a straight bar bit, but I started using a Liverpool a few years ago, and I have found that especially when limiting forward motion, they work great, and if you practice, you can convey much more subtle directions, and they don’t have to be pain-makers.

I think that the pressure that will work the best will be increased bit pressure. Making the pull harder would make them work too hard, and an increasing load would encourage good horses to pull harder, not back off.

I think it is very high expectations to want the horses to just walk that slow without constant alert driving control. It needn’t be hard pressure just accurate pressure (and release) (like Donn suggested).

Good luck, Carl

[J-L]

I agree that it’s not every horse that is able to do that job. I have seen more mules that like that slow pace than horses. Also, some horse won’t like that pace until they are good and mature it seems like. How old are they?

[Carl Russell]

Just a quick qualifier…… One thing I wanted to say was that while you may be able to get your horses accustomed to walking this slow, it will not be a gait that they will naturally adhere to, so you will have to train them to respond to your driving guidance. It takes quite a bit of effective communication to condition horses to have such a wide range of gait while being worked.

Post a video when you get them to do it…… it would be nice to see.

Carl

[Riverbound]

Thanks everyone for your input. These are definitely settled mares at 18 years old. Using a smooth snaffle bit. And, they have performed well at the task for a couple of hours, being led. And leading them for this is probably just fine, especially in light of the get it done mentality we’ve got to have this time of year. But, driving them might indeed be a better choice in the long run. One of the two gets the concept while being driven, the other gets frustrated. The roles are a bit reversed when being led. Also, just a thought, they are not well matched in terms of size, and therefore have different strides and getting them to walk in step in difficult. I do have a gelding who is matched well with one of them, but I haven’t tried him on this job yet, because of his general disposition. But, I can get him and the mare walking in step with the lines, and it wouldn’t be the first time he’s surprised me with greatness, so I’ll have to give that a try.

I did see a video of David Fisher and his transplanter in action. And, I consulted him before getting our transplanter. He really seems to have it down with that team. Its tough to get the balance between “hold back”, “woa” and “step up” in terms of the lines. Like I said, one of mine got it, not the other. Anyway, I’ll keep working at it and will get some video to share when we get it just right (or right enough). Here’s a couple of photos for the curious:

Also, for the really curious or maybe just a little bored or addicted to the screen, photos at
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Riverbound-Farm and
http://www.riverboundfarm.com
Brian

[Carl Russell]

@Riverbound 35113 wrote:

…… Its tough to get the balance between “hold back”, “woa” and “step up” in terms of the lines……

I adhere to a simple fundamental for using line pressure for communication. Contact for work, release for standing. When the horses are standing there is no pressure on the lines. When I prepare to move forward I pick up the lines applying contact pressure which alerts the horses to the coming command to move forward. I kiss, or suck my teeth, and advance the horses on a taught line.

Then when working them I control the forward motion be varying degrees of pressure. More pressure to slow them down, but whenever they attain my desired gait I release pressure, not completely, but enough so they get the reward for the act of walking comfortably. My objective is to show through increased pressure the desired gait, then using the release/reward to try to get them to maintain that gait.

Of course they can surge forward again, which is why I never completely release, but keep a certain level of what I consider acceptable pressure ( I actually try to teach them what I consider to be perfect pressure, and work to attain that in every working setting). The problem is not to fall into constant heavy pressure to hold them at a certain gait, that will result in the surging horse who thinks release is a way to get freedom. The release should be as quick and as often as the attempt. Light as a feather and strong as steel, at the same time.

This is complimented by the fact that I never stop them with pressure. When I want them to stop, I completely release pressure. This helps them to understand that released pressure is a reward, because they love to stand, and is not something to take advantage of by surging. They are apt to be more prepared to stop when they feel pressure release, than they are to surge forward with it. When conditioned, I can drop my lines without speaking to them, and they will stop and stand. (Of course I always say whoa as I want them to stop and stand on command as well.)

This is also how I show them that when there is no pressure on the lines, they are standing. Whoa is not stop, it is stand, and it is a reward, so they learn to take advantage of getting the opportunity to stand……. when they creep ahead, they get worked….

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Riverbound 35113 wrote:

….. Using a smooth snaffle bit…..

I had intended to include a comment about this in my last post.

I know that most people refer to jointed bits as snaffle bits, so I will assume that is what you mean.

I have some serious reservations about using jointed bits in general, and question the effectiveness especially given the aspects of this enterprise.

The jointed action of these bits is designed to aid the driver by enhancing line pressure through squeezing the jaw. The squeezing action actually causes pain by pinching as the pressure increases.

When pressure is applied to reduce the gait of a horse it should be released slightly as soon as the horse assumes the desired gait(release reward). When the pressure causes pain, the pain lingers after the pressure is released, thus reducing the subtle message. The lingering pain makes it very difficult for the horse to feel the slightest release, and therefore may never actually get the idea.

Carl

[f3farms]

i wonder if some horses just “have the granny low”of two of our hackneys-both drive-one green 3yo mare and a 14yo gelding.we trained the mare as her mother was my sons first pony.now the gelding wants nothing to do with going slow-he loves to trot.he came to us broke to rie/drive and has taught our daughter everything.but he does not have a low gear.the filly however does.we were on a atv trail yesturday and it got quite tough. with some encouagement she put it in low gear and creaped for me .it was nice.now as an interesting note ther filly’s mother once beat everyone including the cheating adults in a snail race at a gymkhana.they had to walk across the line ,around a barrel, and back across the line the slowest without breaking foward motion.that good ole girl walked so slow it was like slow motion.it is still today one of his proudest moments(beating the adults with the slowest time overall).so i wonder if some horses just “have it”.
Rob

[karl t pfister]

I am going to weigh in on the side of some horses have much more of an affinity for going whatevever speed one wants …. or is it I have developed an affinity with some horses to be able to go whatever speed I want . I do have one horse out of 20 or so that was just slow , in the pair , to the point of retirement at 14 ,but has a ton of life if her yet , at her speed .

I guess what want to say most is ,my touch with one horse communicates the world , but with another leaves them with nothing but questions .

[Author]

Posts