In Search of a Bobsled

[Does’ Leap]

I have decided I want to invest in a bobseld. The scoot and logging arch are great but, like Carl and others have stated, have their limitations (and advantages). The main reason for wanting the bobsled is to have some wood on the ground. I have been yarding logs 1/4+ mile on steep land. I have been making this work with a scoot and bridle chains, but think the bobsled would be better suited to the job. The added maneuverability of the bob would also be a plus.

I started calling all the folks I have ever purchased horse equipment from asking if they have or know of a bobsled for sale. Inevitably they direct me to someone else and the search goes on. I have spoken with a lot of interesting people and have heard lots of stories about moving wood in different ways. I finally got in touch with a fellow in Danville, Vermont who not only bobbed logs for years, but makes sleds as well. He is either willing to make me a sled or help out with information so that I can make my own. I am leaning toward having him make me one as I would rather be out logging than in my shop. I also have a list of other equipment repairs/project that need to be finished before spring. I am planning on going to Danville to meet this fellow and talk details.

Here come the questions:

1. He asked if I prefer full or half moccasin runners. He suggested half moccasins as he felt they held better on side hills. Can anyone explain the difference between the two and a suggestion about which they prefer?
2. If you were making or having a bobsled made, what things would you include that aren’t currently part of your set-up? For example, he suggested indentations on the rave irons to support a skid or pole on which you roll your logs on the sled. I believe I remember Carl’s sled having those? Seems like a no-brainer as I can relate to having poles slip around on my scoot as I am loading logs.
3. Instead of having a hook on the roll to which I attach my evener, I think I would prefer a ring that I can hook onto with a grab/swivel that I use for ground skidding. That way I can unhook from the sled and go to ground skidding without having to attach a grab/swivel. Any thoughts on this modification and its advantages/disadvantages?
4. Carl, you mentioned some changes that Les Barden was making to the top bunk that would facilitate easier chaining. Could those modifications be incorporated into a traditional bobsled?
5. How about carrying your gear on a bobsled? One of the things I miss about my logging arch when using the scoot is that my arch has a place for all my gear (saw, chains, peavey, tools, places to hang chaps extra coat etc.). When using the arch, all of this stuff is easily accessible and doesn’t have to be moved to when skidding logs. Not so with the scoot. I have devised someways for stowing gear, but there is still a lot of shifting stuff around. Any innovative suggestions to tackle this problem with a bob?

George

[LongViewFarm]

George, thanks for the info and questions. I might be next in line behind you for a bobsled from this maker. Let me know when you go up and maybe I could join you?
Thanks
Jay

[Baystatetom]

Just curious why a bobsled instead of a go devil, maybe like the one Tristan (Dobbin Forestry) had some pictures of a while ago. I have been goofing around with different styles of go devils and have had a lot of failed attempts. The best design I have come up with is more like a stone boat. A bunch of 4′ 4″x4″ held together with a couple of rods that I put the butt of the log on. I can tell a huge difference in how hard the team is working when I am using it. The down side is it only takes one decent sized log at a time. I have been trying to decide between making a bigger go devil and building a bobsled with a bunch of old irons I have laying around. The idea of a bigger one being taking more then one log at a time.

[Does’ Leap]

@Baystatetom 32271 wrote:

The idea of a bigger one being taking more then one log at a time.

The attraction of the bobsled and scoot is the increased payload. I am loading 600-700 ft of logs on my scoot and the horses are pulling that fine with this hardpack snow. Same idea with the bobsled but you are not limited to 16 footers.

I have never used a go devil, but my understanding of its use is for smaller loads going shorter distances. In those cases I use my logging arch. The distance (and slope) are key here. My horses can draw 300 ft loads a quarter mile down hill all day with my arch. It’s getting back up the hill that tires the horses. If I can pull double the logs in one trip over that distance and slope, I am conserving energy.

George

[Carl Russell]

…. think the bobsled would be better suited to the job. The added maneuverability of the bob would also be a plus.

It isn’t about skidding logs with horses, it’s about working horses in the woods. This requires the right tool for the right job, an arsenal of equipment with varying application.

And to answer Tom, the go-devil usually doesn’t have a pole, and we are talking about several hundred bf of logs over long distances.

…..

He asked if I prefer full or half moccasin runners. He suggested half moccasins as he felt they held better on side hills. Can anyone explain the difference between the two and a suggestion about which they prefer?

I have always had full moccasin runners……?????

Instead of having a hook on the roll to which I attach my evener, I think I would prefer a ring that I can hook onto with a grab/swivel that I use for ground skidding. That way I can unhook from the sled and go to ground skidding without having to attach a grab/swivel. Any thoughts on this modification and its advantages/disadvantages?

Carl, you mentioned some changes that Les Barden was making to the top bunk that would facilitate easier chaining. Could those modifications be incorporated into a traditional bobsled?

I believe that the way that I chain logs on my sled is by far the most effective manner. I only mentioned Les’ ideas because in the design he is considering they may work….

How about carrying your gear on a bobsled? One of the things I miss about my logging arch when using the scoot is that my arch has a place for all my gear (saw, chains, peavey, tools, places to hang chaps extra coat etc.). When using the arch, all of this stuff is easily accessible and doesn’t have to be moved to when skidding logs. Not so with the scoot. I have devised someways for stowing gear, but there is still a lot of shifting stuff around. Any innovative suggestions to tackle this problem with a bob?

I leave my clevis and swivel on the evener and just slip the evener over the hook on the roll. The hook should be on a steel strap that wraps around the roll and comes back under the pole, otherwise on a hard pull the horses will turn the roll, and break the pole right off….

Also, bridle chains should be attached to the roll…

Stake pocket on the end of the bunk hold it together, and provide an additional place to attach hooks, chains, etc.

A steel strap shaped to hold the peavey. I use an old trace bolted to the bunk t hold my chain-binder. A pin, or in my case a u-bolt or staple to secure a central hitch-point for load chains.

I find ways to carry all my tools by hanging them on the peavey. I made a small plywood box with a fitted lid years ago, that would fit saw, tools etc, and chained it to the sled, but I found I didn’t like leaving my tools in the woods. I find ways to carry the tools back out with me on top of the logs.

Carl

[Baystatetom]

So the advantage is a increased payload for longer hauls and the pole gives the ability to hold back the load, Right? A go devil would be more for twitching. This is all very interesting to me, as everybody says oxen are stronger (not sure I buy that) and slower. The the key to my efficiency in the woods would be to take as much per trip as possible. I always heard from the old loggers “go light go often”. Carl you have worked in the woods with both oxen and horses does that hold true for both?
~Tom

[Jay]

Back to the question of moc or 1/2 moc runners – In my experience, a straight sided runner (non moc) cuts in to the snow much more where as the moccasin runner floats thruough the snow like a boat in the water. 1/2 moc runners would I assume have 1 side straight (vertical) and therefore float but also dig in – useful on a side hill. My cross chain 2 bob moc sled is terrible on a side hill, diving down hill once it starts to slip at all where my straight sided runner sled cut through more but does fine on a side hill. Jay

[Carl Russell]

@Baystatetom 32277 wrote:

So the advantage is a increased payload for longer hauls and the pole gives the ability to hold back the load, Right? A go devil would be more for twitching. This is all very interesting to me, as everybody says oxen are stronger (not sure I buy that) and slower. The the key to my efficiency in the woods would be to take as much per trip as possible. I always heard from the old loggers “go light go often”. Carl you have worked in the woods with both oxen and horses does that hold true for both?
~Tom

Go light and go often for sure, but there really isn’t such a thiing as often with oxen…… steers yes, but I found oxen to go the same speed empty as loaded, so I liked to keep them loaded.

Bobsled and oxen is a great combination…In fact oxen and logs are a great combination. I logged exclusively with oxen for 10 years and loved it. Big Holsteins, and handy as hell. Moved a lot of wood on the sled with them.

What I said about working horses in the woods should have been about working draft animals… I used all of my equipment with horses or oxen, including a bunk-cart (single bunk on wheels).

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Man these pics bring back some memories. This was about 15 years ago….

Carl

[Does’ Leap]

Jay, I missed your earlier comment about meeting this sled maker. I have a tentative plan to go Thursday am. I am headed up with a friend of mine. Let me know if that works.

Tom, I should have mentioned those loads of 600-700 feet are the top end of what I load on my scoot. Average loads are in the 400-500 foot range give or take depending on the conditions. But my reasoning still stands – larger loads at longer distances make sense.

Carl, 10 years working exclusively with oxen, that is something. I would be interested in reading about what you see as the advantages and disadvantages of oxen and horses working in the woods. Regarding the bobsled, thanks for posting those pictures. Can I take it you have full moccasin runners when you write “I have always had full moccasin runners……?????” I tried finding your method of chaining logs on a bob and came up short. Can you direct me to that thread or article? Is that a u-bolt that extends through your top bunk for chaining logs? Do you use the “weavers bind” (see attachment)? This sled-maker suggests 6×6 yellow birch runners tapered down for the moccasin runners. Any thoughts on that? Finally, I notice you have an indentation on your rave irons in back of the bunk for a skid. I have seen a sled with indentations on both sides of the bunk. Any advantage to that?

George

[Carl Russell]

@Does’ Leap 32295 wrote:

…….Carl, 10 years working exclusively with oxen, that is something. I would be interested in reading about what you see as the advantages and disadvantages of oxen and horses working in the woods. Regarding the bobsled, thanks for posting those pictures. Can I take it you have full moccasin runners when you write “I have always had full moccasin runners……?????” I tried finding your method of chaining logs on a bob and came up short. Can you direct me to that thread or article? Is that a u-bolt that extends through your top bunk for chaining logs? Do you use the “weavers bind” (see attachment)? This sled-maker suggests 6×6 yellow birch runners tapered down for the moccasin runners. Any thoughts on that? Finally, I notice you have an indentation on your rave irons in back of the bunk for a skid. I have seen a sled with indentations on both sides of the bunk. Any advantage to that?

George

As far as oxen vs. horses, the only tasks I didn’t do with my oxen were mowing hay (they were too slow) and spreading manure with a spreader ( they couldn’t hold it back very well on my hills….they didn’t take to the britchen too well). Other than that, the only difference I found was in their behavior….. oxen are so even tempered. There are other differences, advantages both ways with hardware and application, but I’ll expound on that in other places….

I do have full moccasin runners now, and always have. I just put ????? because I ahven’t experience with 1/2 mocs, but I have the same experience as Jay with straight runners. My bobsled runners are 6×5″ cut down to 3″ shoes. Double steel….. one that fits the sled, a second tacked on to take the wear…..

The article is attached to this thread….http://www.draftanimalpower.com/showthread.php?1232-Moving-Heavy-Loads-With-Horses/page4
I do use what your article refers to as the weavers bind, but I think I describe it and diagram it better……:cool:Bobsledding Logs.pdf

6×6 runners are probably a little bigger than necessary, but certainly won’t break…. I have had 4×6 runners with 3″ shoes and they stood up well….

I do have a U-bolt that goes all the way through my top bunk….. remnant from a swing-bunk design that I don’t employ, but it helps to give me a solid central hitch point. For years I just used a 3/4 bolt or pin and started the left side chain on the right side of the pin, and vice versa.

The indentation on my sled is in front of the bunk, Brad Teeter made one with it behind the bunk. I prefer it in front because when the log is on the bunk the natural incline will be above the skid where it rests in the divot. If the skid is in the divot behind the bunk, then the log can have pressure on the skid, making it difficult to remove, especially if you skid is as large as your bunk so that you don’t have to roll your logs up an inch onto the top plate at the last minute. I use a skid pole that is the same diameter or slightly larger than the thickness of my top plate, then the logs actually roll down off of the skid onto the sled, and yet when loaded they shoot upward toward the horses, and over shoot the skid so that I can remove it….

Carl

[Gabe Ayers]

George-
Just read this thread about your interest in a bobsled. I know I have said this here before, but I would highly recommend you speak with John Plowden about building you one. I have been using my sled now for several loads of pine, and it works really well. John rebuilt it with a design similar to Carl’s, with a few changes, and it is a superior tool for my team. He is very reasonable priced as well. John has runner stock in his shop and can fabricate any piece of metal you can dream up for a sled. I am also using a single and team arch that he built both of which are excellent in the woods. And, by the way, I have no incentive to plug John’s work – he just makes superior woods tools.
-Brad

[Carl Russell]

And here is a link to a short clip of using the bobsled last summer in red spruce….

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eZSZS-YnbM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eZSZS-YnbM

Carl

[Anonymous]

Carl, who’s that young guy in your older pictures?? 😉

John

[Baystatetom]

Sorry for once again leading the thread way off its original topic. The more I think about it the more I think I’ll move the bobsled rebuild up the list in front of the scoot. The comment about wearing out the team dragging the scoot back up the hill was a great point that I had not really thought of. My steers are still young and dragging trees for more then a couple hours wipes them right out. I would hate to waist their efforts on an empty scoot. Although so far I have kept the skids short enough the go devil does the trick. Thanks for the great info guys!
~Tom

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