DAPNET Forums Archive › Forums › Equipment Category › Equipment › In Search of a Bobsled
- This topic has 67 replies, 14 voices, and was last updated 12 years, 8 months ago by Jay.
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- February 7, 2012 at 1:17 am #71912Does’ LeapParticipant
Brad, thanks for the recommendation. I will contact John.
@Carl Russell 32275 wrote:
Also, bridle chains should be attached to the roll…
Carl
Carl, why not attach to the runners?
George
February 7, 2012 at 1:54 am #71895Carl RussellModerator@Does’ Leap 32317 wrote:
Brad, thanks for the recommendation. I will contact John.
Carl, why not attach to the runners?
George
If you make them short enough they should work, but they should run under the runner just in front of the bunk….
Carl
February 7, 2012 at 1:10 pm #71950brandon355ParticipantWe are lucky enough to have bought an old farm with tons of stuff laying around. I had been reading about bridle chains on here a lot and couldn’t really grasp the idea until I saw the pictures. Then it was like a lightswitch, I remembered seeing some hanging in the barn, at the time I couldn’t figure out why a chain would have that funny U shaped bracket, now it makes sense. Like finding treasure. I recently put together a set of double bob-sleds that were in the pole barn for unknown number of years. They were meant to behind a single horse but I modified to use with my steers. Finally got to try them out last night. They worked great but I think I need to shorten the tongue. Thanks to this site for all the useful information!
February 7, 2012 at 2:49 pm #71948BaystatetomParticipantDon’t forget those steers will keep growing. My wagon pole seemed way to long last year and fits just right this year. Next year I’ll be cutting another ash pole 2′ longer.
~TomFebruary 7, 2012 at 5:55 pm #71913Does’ LeapParticipantCarl and Brad (others?) what are the length of your runners? From what I figure shorter runners (6 foot?) would give greater maneuverability, but less stability and flotation than a longer runner (8 foot?). Is there variation in length or is there a “standard” for bobsleds? Carl, you mentioned 6x6s might be overkill and that you had 4×6 runners. Is the concern the extra weight?
George
February 7, 2012 at 8:10 pm #71887Gabe AyersKeymasterGeorge-
I have runners that are just about 6 feet long. This length gives several advantages. First, the tool fits in the back of my short bed pick-up and I can still shut the tailgate. This is of great advantage to me as I am always on the move with my sled for work. Second, and more importantly, the shorter runners make the sled much easier to turn and maneuver. My runners are basically 4×6 with a moccasin (the steel shoe is 3″ wide on the bottom), and I get plenty of float without the added weight and length of a longer runner. When you speak to John, run this question by him, but I think you will get a similar answer. Carl, do you agree here?
-BradFebruary 8, 2012 at 12:17 am #71896Carl RussellModerator@Bradbury Johnson 32339 wrote:
George-
I have runners that are just about 6 feet long. This length gives several advantages. First, the tool fits in the back of my short bed pick-up and I can still shut the tailgate. This is of great advantage to me as I am always on the move with my sled for work. Second, and more importantly, the shorter runners make the sled much easier to turn and maneuver. My runners are basically 4×6 with a moccasin (the steel shoe is 3″ wide on the bottom), and I get plenty of float without the added weight and length of a longer runner. When you speak to John, run this question by him, but I think you will get a similar answer. Carl, do you agree here?
-BradYep, all of the above. I have 5×6’s right now because the runner blanks I had were sawed out by a friend who cut them that way. Prior to that I always had 4×6’s. The 4″ runner definitely doesn’t float like the wider ones, and after last winter I felt like I would be glad to try the wider ones. 6×6’s won’t add that much more weight, but I just don’t think they need to be that wide…..
The runners are 6′ from front pin to the rear end. 6′ 4″ overall. Back of bunk is 2′ from rear of the runner.
These plans show 4″ runners.Carl
February 11, 2012 at 11:15 am #71914Does’ LeapParticipantBrad and Carl:
Regarding the runner length, is that 6′ on the ground (i.e. the straight section of the runner) or 6′ total (including the sweep in the nose)?
George
February 11, 2012 at 12:21 pm #71897Carl RussellModerator@Does’ Leap 32419 wrote:
Brad and Carl:
Regarding the runner length, is that 6′ on the ground (i.e. the straight section of the runner) or 6′ total (including the sweep in the nose)?
George
The runners are 6′ from front pin to the rear end. 6′ 4″ overall. Back of bunk is 2′ from rear of the runner.
These plans show 4″ runners.This is horizontal measurement…..as in the diagram. I cut the runners out of square blanks so these measurements are easier to make accurately. If you have to stretch a tape around a curve it can be pretty complicated and inconsistent.
The very top of the vertical measurement for the nose of the upward curve of the runner is 12″ and the vertical height of the center of the pin is 9″.
There are a few measurements that I left out of my diagram because I drew the original on 1/4 inch graph paper at a scale on 1″ = 1′. I think that there is actually 5′ of runner on the ground.
Carl
February 12, 2012 at 3:20 am #71888Gabe AyersKeymasterDitto on Carl’s comments, as John and I made almost the same calculations for my sled. I suppose in the end it does not make much difference on the length as long as you maximize any good curve you have in your runner blanks from which you cut the final shape for the runners. The oak on my sled had some upward sloping grain in the wood, but not a whole lot, and they are plenty strong enough to do the job.
-BradFebruary 12, 2012 at 3:44 pm #71915Does’ LeapParticipantI spent and interesting and educational day with Dwayne Langmaid – a sled-maker, horseman, and consummate craftsman in Walden, Vermont. Dwayne learned from the likes of Ben Thresher (from the documentary “Ben’s Mill”) and other old-time sled makers. We looked at several different types of sleds and discussed what makes a good sled. Dwayne’s idea of bobsled design differ in several ways from Brad and Carl’s bobsleds. Without any firsthand knowledge of using a bobsled, it is hard for me to figure out what makes most sense for my situation. I thought I would list the differences (at least the ones I remember) and open it up for comments and discussion. I would be interested to read what Carl, Brad, John P, and others have to say. Here it is:
- He likes a swing bunk, not a fixed bunk. Dwayne uses the same chaining method as Carl (as far as I can tell) and asserts that there is not too much swing to the bunk, but just enough to help around turns.
- He likes a longer runner – 6’ on the ground plus the sweep of the nose. He states there is more floatation in a longer runner with plenty of maneuverability.
- He likes to place his bunk centered on the runner or an inch in front of center. He related an argument amongst old sled makers. Some believed that the slightly ahead-of-center bunk facilitates the horses lifting the load. Irregardless, this bunk placement is different from Carl’s sled where the bunk is 2’ from the rear of the sled. Carl, is this measurement OC or to the edge of the bunk?
- He does not make stake pockets on his bunks. Brad and Carl, do you use stakes much to keep your logs from rolling off the opposite side of the sled when loading?
- His gooseneck does not rest on the top of the role, but sits on the back side of the roll toward the bunk. He says this facilitates hitching the horses closer to the load.
- He does not use stabilizers that go from the role the back of pole. He feels that the feather bolts, gooseneck and mortised pole are plenty strong and that the horses might hit their hocks on those braces in certain circumstances. This might only be the case with the gooseneck on the back of the role putting the horses that much further back?
- He uses 6x6s for runners. He has a full 6×6 under the bunk but the rest of the runner is scalloped out on the sides. The tails of his runners are also tapered on the top side.
- His likes to place the dip in his rave irons (for the skid) in back of the bunk instead of in front. He feels like by placing the skid in the front of the bunk, you are more likely to catch the back corner of the bunk with your log as you roll it onto the bunk.
George
February 12, 2012 at 4:28 pm #71898Carl RussellModeratorHe likes a swing bunk, not a fixed bunk. Dwayne uses the same chaining method as Carl (as far as I can tell) and asserts that there is not too much swing to the bunk, but just enough to help around turns.
I have found the swing bunk to be less stable, it creates another point of variability in the hitch, and logs get loose, the swing bunk doesn’t always return and re-center, and I have rolled a loaded sled because of this allowing the load to get off-center. Anyway, I have never found a stationary bunk, chained as I do, with short runners, and the bunk set back, to limit maneuverability.
He likes a longer runner – 6’ on the ground plus the sweep of the nose. He states there is more floatation in a longer runner with plenty of maneuverability.
I’m sure that what he says is correct, but I don’t use my sled exclusively in snow, and I like to have less shoe on the ground for maneuverability on dry ground.
He likes to place his bunk centered on the runner or an inch in front of center. He related an argument amongst old sled makers. Some believed that the slightly ahead-of-center bunk facilitates the horses lifting the load. Irregardless, this bunk placement is different from Carl’s sled where the bunk is 2’ from the rear of the sled. Carl, is this measurement OC or to the edge of the bunk?
His math is actually incorrect. With more runner length in front of the bunk, the horses have increased fulcrum to lift the weight, which make it easier…..but to each their own. The 2′ measures from the rear-end of the runner to the back edge of the bunk on my sled.
He does not make stake pockets on his bunks. Brad and Carl, do you use stakes much to keep your logs from rolling off the opposite side of the sled when loading?
I like stake pockets only to keep the ends of my bunks from splitting…. I actually started this when I used the swing bunk (outfitted with stake pockets because many times the best use for a swing bunk is the combination of many small stems under one binder chain and stakes assist in securing this type of load), and after I tipped the sled over I drove two long bolts down through it and made it stationary!! Additionally I find the pockets to have incidental uses like holding a peavey, or chain binder (I put a block or my chain binder in there when I start loading to keep logs from rolling off the other side), or to hook a chain on for rolling logs up, etc….
His gooseneck does not rest on the top of the role, but sits on the back side of the roll toward the bunk. He says this facilitates hitching the horses closer to the load.
The closer the horses are to the bunk, the more log is behind the bunk. It makes sense to get horses close to a load, but on a single bunk sled, the more log you can put in front of the bunk, the more advantage the horses will have.
He does not use stabilizers that go from the role the back of pole. He feels that the feather bolts, gooseneck and mortised pole are plenty strong and that the horses might hit their hocks on those braces in certain circumstances. This might only be the case with the gooseneck on the back of the role putting the horses that much further back?
Same as above, and as I want to use my sled on dirt, I like to have the extra security of the A-frame. My horses are hitched so that they never come close to the A-frame, and the butt ends of my logs often extend past my roll anyway…. The horses shouldn’t put too much lateral pressure on the pole for turning anyway, but the A-frame means to me that will never be a weak link in my sled. Feather bolts are plenty adequate, but any pressure that the pole does apply to the turning of the sled will be at the center of the roll, the A-frame transfers that pressure to a wider center of fulcrum, which in the long run will protect the integrity of the roll.
His likes to place the dip in his rave irons (for the skid) in back of the bunk instead of in front. He feels like by placing the skid in the front of the bunk, you are more likely to catch the back corner of the bunk with your log as you roll it onto the bunk.
I just use a larger diameter skid, and don’t have the problem.
All-in-all, it just comes down to personal preference. I wouldn’t want my sled made that way, but it sounds like he has it pretty well thought out, and he sounds like a quality craftsman.
Carl
February 12, 2012 at 5:35 pm #71937mitchmaineParticipantall the old blacksmiths shops had their own patterns and molds, guarded and protected, that, in the end, set the mark for their own sleds and ironwork. it was their signature, if you will. that sled was made in jim browns shop and so on. and they had their own patrons who would go no where else, cause………………best…………..perfect………..greatest….and so on.
but it probably comes down to what carl said,” it comes down to personal preference, i wouldn’t want my sled made that way.” that about says it all.February 12, 2012 at 9:19 pm #71899Carl RussellModerator@Does’ Leap 32460 wrote:
…
- He likes to place his bunk centered on the runner or an inch in front of center. …..
George
George, I looked at my sled just now, and the center of the bunk is at 2′ 4″ from the tail-end, which would put it just behind centered over the ground bearing portion of the runner (5′), but it is approximately 2/3 back from the roll….
Carl
February 14, 2012 at 11:09 am #71916Does’ LeapParticipantCarl:
Thanks for the input and comparison. It seems as if there is a trade-off between getting the horses close to the load vs. getting as much of the load in front of the bunk as possible. By having the bunk set back with more runner in front, does that increased fulcrum help lift the weight or lever it backward by lifting the nose? I haven’t spoken with Dwayne about this specifically, but it seems like he builds these sleds primarily for winter use. Do you think any of these differences in design have to do with a year-round vs. winter-only sled? Finally, you mention that the horses shouldn’t use much lateral pressure to turn the sled. Does that mean you don’t gee or haw (I use these commands as turning in place) your horses to turn your sled?
George
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