Intact bulls as draft power?

[sanhestar]

Hi,

a castration will ease the hormone related behavioural responses, soften the animal up, so to speak. But, not all behaviour is simply hormone related, a lot of it is wired into the brain and when an animal has had the opportunity to live and act out these instintive behaviour, it will stay readily available.

F.e. – a stallion that has served mares will, even after castration, respond to the signals of a mare in heat. Same with bucks (sheep and goats), male dogs, male cats and quite certainly, also bulls.

But the behaviour won’t be as strong or as persistent as in an intact male.

For your second question: I believe it’s a matter of a healthy balance. A well bonded animal that knows its limits and trusts and respects (not fears) its human handlers.

[Howie]

Carl is right Dexters are very Fiesty I have a friend that was nearly killed by a nice gentle Dexter bull, He was laid up for a long time.
Never Never make a pet out of a animal that is as large or larger than you are.
Teach then to respect you from day one they are never to young to learn respect.
Casturation will help to make this easyier but that is no cure all.
The main thing in teaching any animal to do is to win his respect.
A bull or a stallion are the best behaved animals on the farm because he is waiting for you make a mistake so he can KILL YOU…

[Howie]

Mike

I would not buy at the auction, but that is the best place to go to find out what an honest price is.
I did basicly what I think you are wanting to do up until a few years ago.
I done it with papered Milking Devons. If I was going to do it with grade cattle I would go with Brown Swiss.
AI is the safest way to go BUT you had better know what you are doing so if have no experience with cattle you better do studying.
I done it with the Devons mostly because they are an indangerd breed.

[Crabapple Farm]

I think the problem with bulls that are handled some is that they view people as herdmates, not as “other.” Dairy bulls have a reputation for being nastier than beef bulls for this reason. An unmanageable beef bull is definately a dangerous creature, but more predictable than a mostly friendly one. You always know where you stand with a “wild” bull. A friendly bull does not see you as a threat but as kindred. Therefore, you are a creature that the bull can potentially dominate. Therefore, the bull will try. If he catches you by surprise, that can be very dangerous. You can clearly establish dominance over him, as Carl says, but he will take any opening you give him to question it.
-Tevis

[bivol]

well here’s a video from a bull in bosnia. the bull is mature and does not have a nose ring. he is used for korida, i.e. bull vs. bull fight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1Lip_InlZ4&feature=related

[becorson]

i have only had milking shorthorn, and jersey cattle and it might be different with beef animals but i personally would never keep a bull of a dairy or dual purpose breed past 2 -3 years old.
the dairy farm (Holsteins) where i worked as a teenager always had a young bull that ran with the heifers. at around 2-3 years, every bull would start “feeling his power” and one day would challenge the people who came to work with the heifers. then the farmer would replace the ‘old’ bull with a younger, less confident one.

i have also worked as a vet on farms where they kept older Holstein or Jersey bulls and i remember being truly scared of them when i went to work the cows on those farms …those bulls didn’t like me messin’ with their cows and they really wanted to kill me ….and i had the distinct feeling that at any moment, they might tear out the nose ring and DO it. i always had an escape route planned when i was working in those barns!!
at the bull studs where they keep mature dairy bulls for AI, they have concrete walls that separate the bulls’ walkways from the human handlers. bulls can crumple gates and fences like tin foil, and THEY KNOW IT!
My dad grew up in a farming community in the 20s , before AI was common. he remembers when being killed or injured by a bull was more common that tractor injuries or car accidents are nowadays.

I could go on and on but the point is: my own experience in the bovine world has made me downright chicken when it comes to handling dairy bulls. with beef cattle it’s apparently much different; with them, it’s the cows with calves that you have to watch out for! (“good mothering instinct” means “she will kill you if you even LOOK at her calf” )

seriously, If anyone “out there” has had different experience working bulls of the dairy or dual purpose breeds, speak up, i would like to be educated.

[Anonymous]

My initial thought was “that’s horrible”. Then I watched a couple of the videos. Looks like mostly a wrestling match between two immensely powerful critters. I didn’t see any blood or injuries. Eventually one of them realizes he can’t win and runs off. And they certainly are powerful looking creatures.

[sanhestar]

these videos also give much insight into how the bulls communicate dominance to each other – apart from the fighting: the earth tearing, mock attacks, occupying a strategic place, letting the less dominant bull move while the dominant one stands still.

[bivol]

is it possible to have a bull, through much handling and lots of dominance, never realize its power. or that he is led to believe humans are way too dominant to take on? i mean, if you let it run on the pasture with cows and other critters he realizes he can dominate them. so, it’s only a matter of time before he thinks he can dominate humans.

in bullfights in bosnia bulls have no nose rings and the animals are led by a rope around the horns. the rope horn system was criticized by drew conroy as the animal having too much power over the human, but i never heard of such a bull injure a person… it’s probably because the handling starts early, and because bulls used in bullfighting are trained and prepared like athletes, which includes special diet, running, etc. with trainers.
most bulls live their lives either alone in stall or in pastures, and are not handled enough, i think. combine with high testosterone, and you got an unreliable animal, no matter the nose ring.

[CharlyBonifaz]

no matter the nose ring

in an emergency that nose ring will not stop an attack
just think of yourself how little pain you realize when you are agitated………
it may be helpful in an every-day-life situation but not if things have come out of hand
I very much enjoyed the video demonstrating exactly how you should pick up contact with cattle
elke

[Carl Russell]

I will have to admit I have never kept a bull beyond 2-3 yrs old. I have no need, the genetics are not that valuable, and they will definitely sour.

By my posts, I did not want to indicate that I thought bulls could be warm and fuzzy. I realize their extreme danger potential, and never want a friendly bull, just one that has been handled early, and well, and educated to have respect for my superior size and power (which I know by his nature he will eventually want to challenge) which I constantly reinforce, and escalate, while keeping respect instead of fear. When it becomes clear that the fear/respect line is getting blurred, it’s time for the hot lead injection.

I expect that all of my animals be approachable, and manageable for a wide range of reasons, like vet care, emergency management, moving to/from pasture, and slaugther.

However, working animals for draft, tap into different levels of dominance and cooperation, that are not at all like those of animals kept for breeding or meat. Including the physical exertion, the restriction of movement due to harness/yoke, and the significant elaborate command/response protocol, I think that persons who are determined, and skilled, can realistically keep bulls that can perform more than one purpose. Determination, and skills are a huge part of any success in this regard.

Carl

[Howie]

In the last many many years I have had and handled a lot of bulls. I have found that most bulls disposition is exactly what some human has made it.

[Anonymous]

This has been a fascinating discussion. Thank you , all.

I think what I’m going to plan on is two cows. I’ll raise a calf each year to maintain milk levels. And I’ll pick up a bull somewhere to breed one each year.

I’m thinking about my old college genetics course. If I start with two different bloodlines I think I could safely do what I have in mind. I could breed Dolly’s bull calf to Maureen, and vice versa, without ever crossing lines. No, that won’t work. They’ll cross in the 2nd gen.

I’ll have to see what’s available locally in Devons or Dexters.

[Howie]

Mike
I never bred Dexters but if you go with the Devons. A Devon cow wants to be milking really well or have a calf in her, or both. If you let her get to fat you might just as well forget about getting her bred.
A Devon hiefer should be bred at 15mos. or shortly after so she has her first calf when she is about 24 mounths old.
Feed them well but do not over feed them.
My Devon steers are over fed but you would be amazed at how little it costs me to feed them.

[Vicki]

I have never kept a beef bull beyond 2 1/2 yrs. old. None were “mean” but we never let our guard down with them either.
As for Dexters, poor treatment and I suspect lack of culling for bad temperament seems to result in these stories I hear of horrible Dexters. The breeders I’m familiar with all had dexters sweet and tractible, as are mine. But they are very smart and do hold a grudge, so I believe if left wild, handled overbearingly, or allowed to assert their dominance, they would be awful. If you find a breeder with good stock, cows with good temperament, and handle them wisely, they’re great. For thriftyness and fine meat and milk I can attest. BTW, the Devons are beautiful, the breed needs help, are also thrifty milk, meat, and muscle, but I found the two I bred VERY independent and aloof. My Dexters enjoy human contact.

[Author]

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