Integrated power

[near horse]

I didn’t know whether to put this in the Sustainable energy file or equipment so here it is. The other day after hearing how this or that will be the future of transportation and how we’ll fund it (taxed by the mile? – You’re kidding me.) And how realistically impractical it is where I live to travel at horse speeds I had an idea (oh no).

My point is this: I know the Amish have modified a baler to be ground driven. They also have used treadmill power to run a sort of stationary PTO to pump water or whatever. How about using our animals to generate electricity (and get some exercise/work in the process)? Could be a stationary thing (like a treadmill or a hot walker setup) or maybe a bull wheel on a forecart charging an onboard battery that could be used in an electric commuter vehicle.

I’m sure someone has already thought of this and figured out why it is unfeasible but there are some benefits:
1) can generate power when needed (don’t need sunny days or windy weather)
2) it’s under our control. Not ExxonMobil, Saudi Arabia or your local power company.
3) the process of generating the power is non-polluting (dependent on how much your horses fart :rolleyes:)
4) AND – IT’S ANOTHER WAY OF USING HORSEPOWER IN THE MODERN ERA. And it helps give my horses some useful work to do.

Feel free to shoot down my thoughts – but be gentle. :p

BTW – from the book I keep referring to, “The Alchemy of Air”, Earth passed it’s estimated “natural” human carrying capacity at 2 billion people. Everything over that (and we’re at 6 billion if I remember correctly) is only due to the formation and use of synthetic N fertilizers. Crazy.

[Hal]

I don’t know why it would be particularly unworkable. Of course, there would be the issue of storing the electricity generated in batteries (unless you wanted your animals to be walking around on a generator all day–which might not bother them but would preclude them from doing farm work).

I found an interesting article on an Indian website (here’s the link: http://www.kseboa.org/news/kredl-proposes-energy-generation-through-cattle-power.html) about oxen-power electricity generation–it sounds totally workable, but one of the biggest issues with the plan were “animal activists” who the government feared would be up in arms about the use of oxen to turn a generator. Kind of unfortunate, given how helpful this might be for rural residents.

[Rod]

Their was some discussion on another thread about using animal power to lift a weight as a source of stored power. If you have a water source power can be stored also by using the animals to power a pump, say via a treadmill or round table and pumping to storage. The power can be later recovered by using the stored water directly or through a generator. Of course you need the water source , elevation and a place to store the water there. The latter can be a large tank or as simple as a dug out (lined) excavation.

[goodcompanion]

I wish someone with skills in caloric analysis, like David Pimentel, had ready figures for comparing energy generated from a draft treadmill versus energy generated just burning grass pellets and powering say, a steam engine connected to a generator with them. I’m not Pimentel, but here goes:

I know you lose energy with every conversion. The path you are suggesting, near horse, goes:

sun > grass > muscular energy > stored electricity > motion

five steps, with substantial loss at each step. This suggests that you would need much much more land base to support this battery car one mile than to just drive the horse one mile. Since there are two steps of conversion from horse to car, you might have fifty or a hundred times less energy in the motor of the car than you started with in the muscles of the horse. I don’t know, but it’s always astonishing to me just how much you lose. Maybe only the lord of the manor could drive such a car with twenty farmers charging up his batteries between their chores.

But let’s say that you were going to power your car directly with pelletized grass and somehow gassify that grass and run an internal combustion engine, or power a steam car like in the old old days:

sun > grass > heat > motion

only three steps, but some of them are technically difficult to accomplish. You need a pelletizing system and an engine that can burn grass pellets and generate high rpm without a lot of attention while it runs.

The amish make a lot of use of treadmills so I’m told, but most often use them to power equipment directly or to make compressed air and store it in something huge like a railroad tank car. The compressed air is later used to power shop equipment and the like.

I love that idea and hope to implement it here soon–when the horses are busy elsewhere, compressed air could be pumped with a savonius rotor instead (when the wind is blowing). I’m most compelled by using the rotor to directly power machinery through mechanical transmission–for me even the compressed air is secondary. I’ve been so depressed by the efficiency math on low voltage electricity and the technical nuisance of inverters and net metering that I’ve settled on more primitive, direct pursuits.

[Rod]

I agree that about the efficiency losses but you might want to temper the pure efficiency arguments with the practical. I many instances this may not be the most efficient in a pure energy equation but is workable with what is available and may be the least capitol intensive.
Also mixed systems are very appealing wherein you use direct animal power where ever possible and stored power for those task where the direct power is not practical. Of course the first and most efficient approach to the power requirement in any system is conservation (not using it unless absolutely necessary).

[Hal]

@goodcompanion 6859 wrote:

I know you lose energy with every conversion…. I don’t know, but it’s always astonishing to me just how much you lose.

I know very little about energy and mechanics (and maybe it shows based on my simplistic previous post), but I am confused by this analysis (not saying it is wrong, just not sure how it works). Don’t different conversions lose different amounts of energy? It seems to me that a device that converts grass into burnable pellets would use huge amounts of energy compared to a horse chewing on grass and grains. Or perhaps all life processes use much more energy than I realized?

[near horse]

If I remember right, E conversions are only about 10% efficient (90% lost at eachconversion). But that’s not really where I was going with the idea. Realistically, we are going to be stuck w/ the infrastructure, or some modification of it, created over the last 100 years. And, while many of us can be more self-sufficient in meeting our needs (grow food, provide for heating and shelter) the distances we live from places we need to travel to can’t be altered (short of moving). So how can we utilize something we have on our farm(s) to also address the issue of transportation?

Certainly using animals for direct transportation would be the most efficient but distance and time become limiting (as well as others on the roadway – see Bob’s Accident). Also, while taking grass, pelleting it and burning it to power a vehicle, generator or whatever might be more efficient E-wise, I(we) still have horses to feed in addition to our grass-pelleting process. Also, the horses are, theoretically, available to work. So can we somehow link our horsepower into the existing infrastructure?

I really want to see if there is a way to generate and store electricity while working my horses. I’d rather not have them just walk in circles all day. That’s why the Amish ground drive baler came to mind. If they can use a “bull wheel” to drive the baling mechanics, can we use a similar drive system on a forecart to charge a battery AND harrow or pull a spreader or something. Maybe “pie in the sky” but trying to think outside the box.

Tim Harrigan – you’re an ag -engineer aren’t you? Is something like this workable?

[goodcompanion]

@Hal 6862 wrote:

I know very little about energy and mechanics (and maybe it shows based on my simplistic previous post), but I am confused by this analysis (not saying it is wrong, just not sure how it works). Don’t different conversions lose different amounts of energy? It seems to me that a device that converts grass into burnable pellets would use huge amounts of energy compared to a horse chewing on grass and grains. Or perhaps all life processes use much more energy than I realized?

My understanding is that all changes in forms of energy entail loss, or dispersal (second law of thermodynamics, in the vernacular, is that you can’t break even). So when the horse eats grass and turns that into metabolic energy that you can use for work, you are getting at best ten btus, or calories, or whatever standard unit you’re using, for every hundred btus, or calories of grass consumed. I don’t know the exact ratio. It’s possible that the ratio for burning pellets is similar, but then you have to expend energy going out and cutting the grass and somehow making pellets out of it, then burning them to release the energy, most of which will be lost in the process.

Other changes in energy are less costly. For instance if I have two simple gears meshing together, and I turn one to make the other turn in the opposite direction, clearly I’m not losing 90% of my power. But I am losing some from the friction of the gear teeth against each other, the air resistance on all moving parts, the friction of the wheel turning on its axle, and so on.

As Bret pointed out, the pros and cons of anything you might do are quite involved. You have to be a physicist in order to make any real sense of the planning involved, beyond the basics. We talked to an alternative energy consultant a while back and came back with a real sense of paralysis: all the available options (for electricity generation) are money pits compared to the grid. And generate pitiful quantities of power for the expense.

For me, I’m not a physicist and I’m pretty prepared to do without most of the stuff we use our ever-so-convenient electricity for when the time comes, and hopefully compressed air from wind and draft power will serve me for the rest.

If a device yields results and is simple and cheap, I’m all for it. It doesn’t matter how “inefficient” it is if it can be made by you and sustained by you, and does useful work for you (isn’t that part of what brought many of us to draft animals in the first place?) Conversely it may not matter how “efficient” a device is if you can’t understand it, repair it, and obtain parts for it without the whole market economy to help you do so.

Along mechanical lines, I am most impressed by devices of outstanding longevity. Read about a steam engine in England that functioned without a break pumping water from a mine from 1852 to 1964. And the steel windmills and their medieval predecessors that pump water and grind flour year after year without complaint.

But if it’s distance and speed you’re after, such things are possible without cars. I had a friend who built a crazy contraption of two time-trial bicycles bolted together with a clear experimental aircraft nose cone in front. The bikes were side by side and had flanged wheels that sat on a regular railroad track. He and his wife, both in their late fifties, averaged 45 mph, a little slower uphill, a little faster down. (don’t try this on a track with a lot of train traffic)

I have a different friend that built a car that ran directly on wood gas and drove it from Brisbane Australia to Canberra (about 1000 miles) fueled only on roadside deadwood. Average speed 40 mph.

[Robert MoonShadow]

My thoughts are somewhat similar to Erik’s; to put it as my Granny used to say:
“You can hear 100 valid reasons why you can’t (or shouldn’t) do something: you only need one reason why to do something.”
You can think it to death, or you can do it, Geoff; I hope you try it… and I hope you succeed –> if it works, I’ll buy one – or the plans. Heck, if it generates enough juice to keep a brake/turn signal type system functioning or charge a battery to do the same, I’m very interested – it doesn’t have to power my house!
Man, this website is just popping with ideas! 😎

[near horse]

I appreciate some of the responses but perhaps I wasn’t clear in conveying my thought. While I am interested in some of the other forms of alternative or home made E, I too have recognized that there is no free lunch (or even free snack). As Brett said, solar and wind are pretty pricey to get setup; methane needs to have a minimum temp to digest the slurry (could work w/ a greenhouse setup though?). Rape/canola for biodiesel at least yields oilseed cake or pellet for feed (stick w/ canola since rape can cause digestive problems).

I’m just looking for a way to take something that we (many of us) have or “own” – our horses – and use that asset to help us reduce our reliance on “bought” energy. I understand that increasing the work load on the horses will require more E input from my farm in the form of feed but I’d rather put it into my horses than into ExxonMobil’s record profits again. on top of that, is there a way that, in the process of doing some work (not maxxed out plowing but something a bit lighter – harrowing – or just driving) we can also recoup some of the kinetic energy of motion and store it (like in a battery). So, with my limited imagination, all I can envision is a forecart w/ some type of ground driven flywheel that runs a sort of generator to charge up an onboard battery. The battery(s) could be used for whatever but I was thinking of using them to run an electric car.

Where’s Rube Goldberg when you need him?:D

[goodcompanion]

Then without a question you can do this with devices already available. The amish make quality one and two-horse treadmills, some with a pto takeoff. You could certainly charge a battery with one. The treadmills ran somewhere between two and three thousand–I can probably find a reference for you if you are interested.

I’m just not sure how many hours on the treadmill it would take for an hour behind the wheel.

[Carl Russell]

My thoughts generally come from a place where added technology creates added cost and demand. I realize that there are limitations to using the horse for personal transportation in extremely rural areas, at least in the modern context of time, but the animal already is geared to use the solar energy collected in grass and turn it into motive power.

I think the idea of battery stored electricity could work, but for what kind of vehicle? An electric moped, or an electric car? Where is the technology going to come from? How much will that cost? How much are you going to transport? For how far? Can you design and build something yourself?

Possibly a light vehicle with a charger on board so coasting downhill will contribute to recharging the battery.

In any event, I come back to examining how we spend our energy now, and the habits that we get into based on that. I think of using horses as transport of material goods over long distances, supported by several client homesteads, or community. Using horses to create on-farm energy to off-set the expense of purchasing fuel, or other transport technology, could also be useful, because the reality is that those aspects of our energy future are going to be more important, and probably more cost-effective than trying to hold onto our current level of mobility.

I too have planned for years how to design a horse-powered energy system, which can be used to generate electricity, power hydraulics, and pump water. The truth of the matter is that if you can find ways to use electricity to power personal transport, this would work, but I tend to see it as a transitional system.

[dominiquer60]

Bret,
I don’t want to get too off topic, here is Wikipedia’s quick answer to your question, but I am sure Geoff can explain it better.

“Natural rapeseed oil contains 50% erucic acid, which is mildly toxic to humans[citation needed] in large doses but is used as a food additive in smaller doses. Wild type seeds also contain high levels of glucosinolates (mustard oil glucosindes), chemical compounds that significantly lowered the nutritional value of rape seed press cakes for animal feed. Canola, originally a syncopated form of the abbreviation “Can.O., L-A.” (Canadian Oilseed, Low-Acid) that was used by the Manitoba government to label the seed during its experimental stages, is now a trade name for ‘double low’ (low erucic acid and low glucosinolate) rapeseed. Sometimes the “Canola-quality” sticky note [what does this mean?] is applied to other varieties as well[3].”

Erika

[near horse]

Good comments from all of you.

Erika – right on the mark about canola vs rape. Plus you threw in the word “syncopated” – one has to like that! 🙂 Rape oil is used primarily as a high quality lubricant (and now perhaps for biodiesel) while canola is produced for human consumption (of the oil).

Carl – I know where you’re coming from w/ regard to reducing reliance on outside technology but we all have to decide what concessions to make to get along in this age. We are quite a long distance from towns of any substance (30+miles) and my wife commutes to work as well. I was trying to think of how to reduce our reliance on petroleum (or whatever the next expensive E source will be).

One practical limitation seems to be, and I think that Brett is getting at this, the speed the generator/alternator needs to turn in order to recharge a battery. I’ve seen some “power plants” designed for rural areas in developing nations but they run on a small diesel motor. Neat idea though – they run a seed crushing mill, water pump, a few electric lights Here’s the link [HTML][http://www.ptfm.net/old/mfpwhat.htm/HTML].

So – how can we replace a diesel motor with draft horses? (Now isn’t that a reversal of the tractor era thinking:D)

There are also guys that have stripped small cars of engine/transmission etc and just run a battery and electric motor. Those things can generate serious speed – like 6 sec quarter mile. Also, I heard a guy on the radio that just has some HS kids working on designing an electric car and they’ve already made a couple of prototypes that function well and don’t cost $$$$$. He said he didn’t know why GM and others were going to need 3-5 years to get going.

Keep brainstorming – my storm is starting to lose its thunder now.

[dominiquer60]

You guys definitely have some thoughts in the right direction, I can’t begin to brainstorm like that. My thoughts have been into production poultry hybrids that are easy to produce in the barnyard, not hybrid energy production. Thanks for the kind words Geoff, but everything in quotes was directly cut and pasted from Wikipedia. My vocabulary is very Lamarckian, use it or loose it, and I am afraid that I lost “syncopated” in college a while back. Now that I have rediscovered it, I will have to fit it in once in a while, I’ll work on it because you are right, it is a good one. :rolleyes::)

[Author]

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