Just wondering what you all are cutting these days

[lancek]

Im hopeing we just landed a 1200 acher job that is realy going to test the old woodsmen skills allmost all is roadless and grow over owner wants to turn over grown areas back to pasture and manage forest for game and woodlot!

[PhilG]

Taylor,
I loaded this with a rubber tiered skidd, but I have used my selfloader also, we just put plywood down under the outriggers. This road is fresher than most, usually they are so beat up from the snowplow and chains we dont even need to wory about it. I would like to sell the semi with loader and put a loader on the goosneck, i think that would be a good fit with horse logging. The skidsteer could go to but dang they are handy little buggers and you could only get 10 cents on the dollar sellin equipment these days.
I just have a partner and my yongest son working now (part time he is 13)
would like to get bigger jobs somday and see 5 horses/guys doing laps, that would be quite a sight, how could that not compair with a 525 cat skidding?
and at the same cost with less crap to fix and fuel to truck up the mountain.
Do you think that could be done? We have a lot of dead Aspin and Lodgpole around here, it won’t be cleared out in my lifetime.

[PhilG]

Lancek,
can you do that many acres with horses? we are looking at 200 acres of Fir, mostly blowdown and were thinking that might be to much to handle, we are not to good at figuring time on the horses yet.

[lancek]

Phil
We will be incorperateing a forwarder trailer for the long hauls, probaly useing a tractor on the trails and the horses in the woods the land clearing work the land owner has a tracked loader and most of that work will be done with that!
and all the material will be brought back to the mill to be prosessed into product!And we will need to buy more horses Yeaa!!!!!
Ps Phil keep the skid loader they are to handy to get rid of the smaller trailer is a good idea!!!

[Scott G]

I used to use a skidsteer fo all kinds of tasks at the landing and sure wish I still had one.

I often loaded semi’s with one. I would build a low angle ramp on the cut bank side and with a brush grapple like Phil has pictured, nestle logs in the bunks no problem. This was a common solution when the log loader wasn’t around. Routinely used one to load posts & poles on my 20′ gooseneck flat bed.

They are damn handy for pushing up clean slash piles for burning and rehabbing landings. Put a bypass grapple on one with a rotator and they are extremely efficient for processing/sorting on the landing. Road building/maintenance as well. I demo’d the 300 series JD Phil has pictured, they are sweet machines when used within the realm of their ideal applications.

Phil, are you using the quakie for furniture or architectural wood? I just started using a ‘logman’ tenon maker with my 3 hp router for making tenons for a new log railing I’m building. Lot of fun and it sure looks nice. Has my mind turning as a possible profitable addition to the forestry biz using local small diameter wood harvested via horse logging. I did a google search and this stuff sells for up to $45 linear foot! Pretty easy/quick to put together once you get the hang of it and looks awfully nice. Way better than that dowelled/milled spec stuff you can buy.

Taylor, we don’t have road restrictions like you guys have back there. Plywood/other pads like Phil is using, if any at all, are fine for the outriggers on an A-frame loader on pavement. Most times the issue is sinking an outrigger in mud causing your heart to skip a beat when you are reaching far out. Many USFS roads are closed during the winter through mud season but that includes all traffic. Doesn’t really affect winter logging that much as the FS will make an exception for a logging/contract project. Most of the larger sales include a rock deposit (road base) that goes towards fixing the road. Otherwise, all other roads, County or otherwise, do not have general “posted” dates. Many of the roads you don’t want to travel with a load anyway when they are iced or mudded out. With the terrain out here many of our forest roads involve a “slide for life” section that can be hairy to say the least. I’ll usually avoid winter projects that have that issue. Nothing like having your heavily-loaded trailer pass you on a 12-15% iced out grade to cause you to have to re-upholster your truck seat (been there)…

[PhilG]

Hey Scott,
Most of this is not very sound, there are some nice pieces though that i will save from the firewood pile. I was thinking maybe some bed posts and rails like you see in the resort furniture stores. That tenon maker would work for that too.
I have made a lot of railing that is a very good side buisiness, I was getting $55 a LF installed for straight runs and $85 for stairs( i hate doing the stair rakes, the should be about $ 200 a LF to break even but the straight runs make up for it)
I mostly do full scribe railing because not many others do and it looks pretty cool (espesialy out of Juniper, but its harder than titanium), that I get about $125 – $200 LF, and the rakes are easier to scribe than to try and drill at an angle. I love pealin railing on a sunny Colorado winter day with a freaky sharp drawnife.

Lancek,
how long will the horse skid be to the forwarder trail, I have seen Carl mention 1000′ a few times, is this what you shoot for also , or less on a job of that size?
Skid steer is stayen, my kids would kill me if I sold it.

[TaylorJohnson]

Phil , I know it could work the only things that are going to hold you back finding men that can run horses well enough to get something done and you liability and workers comp issues. The insurance is all that is holding be back right now from putting some men to work. Men with horses cut all the white pine to speak of off of Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota back in the day so I know you and five other guys with a loader truck can do a 1000 easy enough 🙂 .
Like I said the insurance is all that is holding me back. I have a lot of young guys that would love to come and work for me . These guys might be a little rough around the edges but hell historically a lot of logger are. They would thrive in the bush working animals and I can work with them , they would be to tired to get very rough at the end of a 10 hour day lol. I would like to take on big jobs and work a 5 plus man crew with the straggler here and there but as it is I can not . If you got access to 5 men and horses I would say go for it . I take it you don’t all have arches so try to keep your skids to about a 500′ average and remember every time you touch that wood you loose money,, this is true with all logging but man alive! it is harder felt in horse logging. Taylor Johnson

[Carl Russell]

PhilG;19361 wrote:

Hey Scott,
…..
how long will the horse skid be to the forwarder trail, I have seen Carl mention 1000′ a few times, is this what you shoot for also , or less on a job of that size?
……

Taylor Johnson”….I take it you don’t all have arches so try to keep your skids to about a 500′ average and remember every time you touch that wood you loose money,….”

I am about to start a job with several other teamsters, two of us will have teams the third a tractor and forwarder wagon, and a fourth with a saw. We expect to use the teams on arch/carts and will keep the skid distances less than 500′.

My reference to 1000′ is the outside distance that I try to use the cart, but those are jobs where I don’t have something like a forwarder. I will use a scoot sometimes in the 500-1500′ range, the loads are typically smaller, but it is a lot faster to load and moves easier, however it is less maneuverable.

But the point of the sleds or the forwarder are to shorten the twitching distance. I will make staging areas around the lot where main skid trails are easily accessible, then twitch in logs and trees from the shortest possible distances, usually no more than 200′.

This is what we intend to do with the forwarder. We’ll make a loop road through the lot that transects the harvest area on reasonable terrain, then cut and bunch all along this trail. This way the tractor can just make the loop and not have to find a place to turn around. We will however make sure that our staging areas are big enough so that we can stockpile 1-2MBF without a lot of handling and stacking.

We are cutting white pine, red spruce, hemlock, and some hardwood logs and fuelwood. Markets are not strong but are active. We are going to charge by the hour so that we all can keep track of how we contribute to the production. 2 men with saws in the morning, 2 running teams, then 1 saw, 2 teams, and the forwarder in the afternoon. I’ll report back after we get into it a ways. I am hopeful that this will be the beginning of a cooperative effort that can help to increase the effectiveness of draft animal-powered forestry in this area.

Carl

[lancek]

We Will try to keep our twichs between 200 and 300 feet the origanl skid trails are all in that range so we will use them as extraction roads and twich the logs to there!

[Scott G]

Phil,

That juniper railing is way cool. The entire deck & house will rot into the ground before the juniper shows any sign of decay. Scribing with an existing tenon must be tricky while maintaining a consistent baluster & rail height.

On the subject of stair railings. I just finished all of my straight runs and now have two sets of stairs to do. I’ve built many stairs and conventional railings but the dedicated mortise & tenon will be a first. Laying out the correct angle has me scratching my head and makes my brain hurt. I can’t visualize using the normal rise/tread calculation and applying it to the railing. On railings I’ve built before I just set the rail(s), got the horizontal spacing and plumbed the baluster with a level. I then used a preacher to set the remaining balusters and it went really fast and turned out really well. Drilling out all of these mortises at the correct angle while maintaining the correct distance between balusters has me perplexed. I have been toying around with the angle guage but am thinking I’ll just set the top & bottom rail then come back and plumb the spacing, take the angle, mark/transfer to the mortises, and pray…

I’ve searched online for a standard way to mark out these stair railings but have come up with nil. The common theme I run across, which is what you are saying, is that they are “a pain in the ass”.

Don’t know if I think there is a more perfect day than spending it with a drawknife in the sun, even if it is wicked sharp. Guess its because I’ve spent way too many hours, days, weeks, months behind one peeling logs while looking at the large deck that still needs to be peeled.

I apologize to everyone else for taking this tangent on the thread. I’m currently immersed in mortise & tenon log work and jump at the opportunity to get answers.

On forwarding, those of you that have been here awhile know my thoughts. Mixed harvesting systems, specifically horses for prebunching trailside and a forwarder for moving mega volume over distant turns, are a slam dunk combo. The system fully utilizes both components (horse & forwarder) to their highest potential for the specific application where they really shine. “Forwarder” could be a bob, trailer, horse-drawn forwarder, farm tractor/trailer, or purpose built forwarder. Regardless of the forwarding system used, the key is to get the wood off the ground, in bunks, and on wheels/runners to move a large volume that otherwise would not pan out to be efficient when skidding. The smaller the wood the more paramount this becomes.

[PhilG]

Scott,
The rakes can be calced with the rise and run, if your rise is say 10′ and ( 16 risers @7 1/2″ ) and 15 treads at 11″ your run is 13′ 9″, diagnal of 17′ = 8 3/4 pitch = 36.03 degrees on your stairs with a complement angle of 53.97 degrees (now you see why prefer a sharp drawknife) So with a 4″ spacing to keep the government inspecters busy plus the picket of say 2 1/2″ thats 6 1/2″ of travel on a flat (run) on a 8 3/4 pitch that would be – 8″ 1/16 on the bottm/top rail (diagnal) and 4 3/4″ of rise from one hole to another. Divide the rail space from post to post and divide it and get as close to this number (8 1/16) as you can- DON’T forget to add in an empty 4″ space to the mix. I have mark out a whole rail and had the top one right up against the top post and had to start all over.
Then to plumb up I use a laser type thing PLS5 or 3 or any will do for this to get the center of the upper hole, even big brass plumb bob works great. rip a 1″ x 1″ on a table saw for a first run layout tool to save scratching off your good rails, as far as drilling angled holes the best thing i have found is a carbide tiped hole saw with a 8″ pilot bit, then finish of with forsner or self feed bit so the 8″ dosent drill out the other side, angled holes always want to drift the first 1/2 moon cut is tuff just hold steady and take your time, speed not preasure works best in the bit.
Hope that helps.

Thanks for the distance stuff, I think I will bring a long tape with me for a while until i get it sorted out and take some better notes.

Carl, post some photos of that one (its the only way i get to travel these days to see other parts of the country) that sounds like the perfect scenario, thats exactly what I’m sooting for here.

[Scott G]

@PhilG 19390 wrote:

Scott,
The rakes can be calced with the rise and run, if your rise is say 10′ and ( 16 risers @7 1/2″ ) and 15 treads at 11″ your run is 13′ 9″, diagnal of 17′ = 8 3/4 pitch = 36.03 degrees on your stairs with a complement angle of 53.97 degrees (now you see why prefer a sharp drawknife) So with a 4″ spacing to keep the government inspecters busy plus the picket of say 2 1/2″ thats 6 1/2″ of travel on a flat (run) on a 8 3/4 pitch that would be – 8″ 1/16 on the bottm/top rail (diagnal) and 4 3/4″ of rise from one hole to another. Divide the rail space from post to post and divide it and get as close to this number (8 1/16) as you can- DON’T forget to add in an empty 4″ space to the mix. I have mark out a whole rail and had the top one right up against the top post and had to start all over.
Then to plumb up I use a laser type thing PLS5 or 3 or any will do for this to get the center of the upper hole, even big brass plumb bob works great. rip a 1″ x 1″ on a table saw for a first run layout tool to save scratching off your good rails, as far as drilling angled holes the best thing i have found is a carbide tiped hole saw with a 8″ pilot bit, then finish of with forsner or self feed bit so the 8″ dosent drill out the other side, angled holes always want to drift the first 1/2 moon cut is tuff just hold steady and take your time, speed not preasure works best in the bit.
Hope that helps.

Wow, now my head really hurts!!

Thanks Phil, I’ll ruminate on it for awhile. The hole saw before the Forstner makes a lot of sense. I know just what you mean about the Forstner skipping around on an angle.

[lancek]

Im glade that we only make the parts and not the finished rails that would give you a headach!!!!!!!

[TaylorJohnson]

Phil one thing I do is when I am ground skidding wood and want to keep my distances reasonable. I count my steps as I am skidding , not every skid but once in a wile to see how far I am going . When I come out and I am walking 300 steps I know I have went about 600′ . My strides are about 2′ with out a lot of exception. When I hit that 300 steps I start to figure on a closer place. Check your stride and see what it is and use that as a rough way to figure you skids , I can walk a job make a few notes and have a good idea of what I want to do with out a lot of hassle. If your terrain is rolling you are walking farther than a map will say . Taylor Johnson

[PhilG]

Thanks Taylor, that is the simple remidy I needed, I’ll start with that 300 count and see how it goes.

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